Inward Journey

People Pleasing - Episode 40

• Kevin Bergin • Season 1 • Episode 40

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Jeannene:

Hello, and welcome to our podcast today. You're here with Janine and Kevin, and we've been away for a while.

Kevin:

We have. We've been away. You've been away. I'm Kevin. Thank you for inviting me to introduce myself. You've been away.

Jeannene:

I have been away. Hunting

Kevin:

animals. No.

Jeannene:

Not hunting animals. Watching animals, seeking out animals in Kenya.

Kevin:

Nice.

Jeannene:

I've had a wonderful experience away. And then I returned and we connected again and then we both got really sick. We did.

Kevin:

I got sicker.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Okay. I gave you that one.

Kevin:

You did give me that one. I wanted an argument about it, but no, I got, I got sick as I want to be. Thank you very much. And anyway, it's gone.

Jeannene:

Great,

Kevin:

and

Jeannene:

it is great to see you well again Kevin,

Kevin:

and you do,

Jeannene:

you do look well, and you've moved. I've moved

Kevin:

again. This time I don't feel embarrassed about it like, you know, I think I've mentioned this before, my daughter's taken to calling me a nomad, but you know, yeah, I am. This time I didn't have to move, but I was offered something that is really nice, it suits me, and it's right by the river. And it's almost in the CBD, it's very close.

Jeannene:

That's fabulous, Gary.

Kevin:

Yeah, so I'm really enjoying it.

Jeannene:

And it's back to your happy place?

Kevin:

It's my happy place. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah. I think that's really important for people, which just reminds me, we're recording this episode on the podcast today in Wanjuri land. Oh, we

Kevin:

didn't do that.

Jeannene:

And we'd like to acknowledge elders past and present

Kevin:

and emerging.

Jeannene:

Yes.

Kevin:

All right. Good. I'm glad we did that. Yeah, so yeah, so anyway, yeah, look like

Jeannene:

and

Kevin:

I moved I'm not quite settled yet In fact far from it, but now that I'm feeling better I'm enjoying sorting the place out and doing things at two weeks with everything keen But a lot of it just laying on the floor and

Jeannene:

there is that when

Kevin:

you move It's yesterday. I put pictures up

Jeannene:

Okay. Well, I'm on task because I want

Kevin:

to see you want to actually do a podcast. There's an idea. I just want to talk. There's a thought. There's a thought. We could do the podcast. I just want to talk about me. Me. You can introduce the topic. The topic. Oh yeah. You can introduce the topic if you want to. Topic introducing. Topic introducing. Well, I wanted to call it one thing and we're not going to, we're going to call it, I wanted to call it. Please like me.

Jeannene:

Well, you can call it whatever you like, but the tappy is going to be on people pleasing. Ah, people pleasing.

Kevin:

So we had a little break. Discovered that we were using the wrong microphone.

Jeannene:

I wasn't gonna tell them that. I

Kevin:

know, but I did.

Jeannene:

Okay. Because I'm

Kevin:

not people pleasing. I'm doing exactly as I want to do.

Jeannene:

I noticed. It's real annoying.

Kevin:

And then, we had to struggle getting the music in.

Jeannene:

Oh my god.

Kevin:

We're doing the editing.

Jeannene:

Save me people. It's really

Kevin:

important that people know all the technical details. Righto.

Jeannene:

Yeah, it's actually It's pretty prevalent out there, isn't

Kevin:

it? We just agreed we weren't going to talk about out there. We were going to talk about in here, like inward journey.

Jeannene:

Yeah, but my experience, what is me, says that it's prevalent out there. So that's coming from the inside of me. Me.

Kevin:

You just twisted that.

Jeannene:

I made it suit, didn't I? You did. But it worked. Anyway, that's what I mean when I'm talking about

Kevin:

We're definitely back, aren't we? The

Jeannene:

topic. Yes, we're back.

Kevin:

Yeah, we're back. Okay.

Jeannene:

Dear. It's been like this all morning, people. Really, feel for me.

Kevin:

Oh, just for a moment there, I thought it wasn't recording, but apparently it is. Oh,

Jeannene:

gosh. I think we might need to do a do over.

Kevin:

I like the early versions of the software that we used, when it used to show you on the screen. Do

Jeannene:

the people need to hear about the software here? But now it doesn't show you. Really? Really?

Kevin:

Can I not tell them? They must be so interested. I

Jeannene:

think not.

Kevin:

No? Oh. Well.

Jeannene:

As long as they get to do their topic. Yeah. How about we talk about the topic.

Kevin:

People pleasing. People

Jeannene:

pleasing. So

Kevin:

where do you start with people pleasing? Oh

Jeannene:

God, I actually don't know.

Kevin:

No, so you were trying to get me to start, weren't you? I know.

Jeannene:

Except, if you're people pleasing.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Then what you're doing is you end up absorbing everybody else's conflict.

Kevin:

Really?

Jeannene:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin:

Okay. I didn't see it like that.

Jeannene:

Well, let's give an example. Let me see if I can find one.

Kevin:

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I never thought about it like that. That's all.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Well, it's like you say to me, do you like that cup? And because I'm going to buy it, I was going to buy you some extra cups. And I go, yes, And I secretly don't like the cup.

Kevin:

What

Jeannene:

I'm doing is I'm absorbing a conflict. Because I'm not saying to you, no, not really. I don't like it because what happened, I'm fearful of the conflict. And so what I'm doing is I'm not being my true self and I'm absorbing what's around so that there is no conflict.

Kevin:

So what I see,

Jeannene:

yeah,

Kevin:

is different.

Jeannene:

I see there's many ways of viewing it. I see if

Kevin:

there's people pleasing, I say, do you like, do you like this cup? Look at this lovely rainbow cup and you say, yeah, I love that rainbow cup. And it's not true.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

So then what I see is. Or my take on it would be the way that I used to people please would be that's how I do it I'd be like,

Jeannene:

yeah, of

Kevin:

course, of course, I like I like you. I like the cup. I like whatever you're doing

Jeannene:

Yeah

Kevin:

But I don't see how that absorbs conflict Because I really don't know what the hell is going on with the other person. All I'm doing is going So which color do I have to change to? So that I'll, I'll match with the color that you want.

Jeannene:

That's right.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

So no conflict though.

Jeannene:

No conflict in you?

Kevin:

Oh, well, it's a conflict. Is that what I would call it?

Jeannene:

Yeah, because you That

Kevin:

kind of people pleasing just buries me.

Jeannene:

That's right. I'm not there. That, that's right. So it absorbs the conflict that you won't have with the person.

Kevin:

Oh, you mean it's a lack of conflict?

Jeannene:

Well, it's both. Because what happens is that you, you end up in conflict because you're not going to have the conflict outward.

Kevin:

Okay.

Jeannene:

Big concept.

Kevin:

Big what?

Jeannene:

It's a big concept.

Kevin:

It's a big concept.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Because what, what you're doing is if I'm not speaking up and you say, do you like this song? And I go, yeah, I do. Oh yeah. Okay. So I'll, we'll, I'll play more of these songs. Yeah. So it's the same thing. And then you play more of that music that you like. And I'm sitting here going, Oh, I really don't like it, but I'm smiling and I'm going, it's fabulous. It's fabulous. So what I'm doing is I'm in internal conflict because I'm pleasing you. Keeping you happy. Yeah,

Kevin:

okay. I get that now. I thought you meant. But

Jeannene:

now I'm. Both

Kevin:

people are in conflict. No. No. Just you. Yeah,

Jeannene:

just me. Yeah. Because I'm doing the people pleasing. And, and what happens, I'm not serving myself in any way. Yeah. I'm not being truly. Yeah. authentic, I'm not being fully who I am as a person, I'm not being Janine.

Kevin:

I learned that it was a good way to get what I wanted.

Jeannene:

Tell me more.

Kevin:

You know, in a not very pleasant way, I guess. You know, when I was very young, I would gauge how the mood was, you know, how my father's mood, my mother's mood. brother's moods were my sister's mood or any other family member so That I could come out of hiding like literally come out of hiding And, you know, if I could gauge what the mood was, then I knew how to be.

Jeannene:

So how would you please them?

Kevin:

By agreeing with what they said.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

To the extent that that would make me invisible, because that's what I'd want.

Jeannene:

It was safer to be invisible.

Kevin:

Yeah. Yeah. So I wouldn't have to physically hide because I'd be invisible. I feel like I was invisible anyway, I probably, I was invisible. Yeah.

Jeannene:

But as, that would be a child's plight to do that. And a child will need to play with pleasing and learning about containment and learning about speaking up and all of those things I think are ways of exploring or being with your environment and sometimes the only way if there's a high conflict environment or violent environment, then the only way to be is. It's with whatever skill you've got. So it might be people pleasing. Absolutely. And you would need to do that. But as a grown up,

Kevin:

a grown up,

Jeannene:

you'd want to think about having a bit more clarity as to who you are and

Kevin:

I skipped that bit.

Jeannene:

Well, otherwise all your relationships are going to be,

Kevin:

they were transactional based

Jeannene:

on everybody else. Yeah, that's correct. On you.

Kevin:

I became very skilled at manipulating, and that would be some direct routes, but it would often be by noting what people wanted and making sure that I was able to give it to them so I could manipulate to get what I wanted, basically. So it was different from the childhood thing in that. It was more aggressive, it was something that I wanted, which was, you know, often I'm kind of money or drugs or something related to that lifestyle that I was living.

Jeannene:

So I guess it's really hard

Kevin:

to give up even when I stopped using drugs.

Jeannene:

So I guess we're talking about multiple ways or purposes of people pleasing. When I think about people pleasing, I think about the person who just goes, yes, I'm Whatever you want. I don't mind. I'll do it. You're going to spit your coffee again, aren't you? I nearly did. I

Kevin:

also banged the coffee cup down. I'm doing all the things that Janine doesn't like.

Jeannene:

Oh my goodness. Well, please me, will you?

Kevin:

No. There you go. That's what you need to say, is no. Do you like this music I'm playing? No. Do you like the coffee cup? Uh, no. It's rubbish. I think we did a podcast. About no. Yes, we did. We did. No is a really useful word.

Jeannene:

Yes. I mean even me saying to you Kevin when you put the coffee cup down heavy it makes a bang and And it does and and a few of the other things I've talked to you about like don't do that

Kevin:

Yeah Thanks, Mom

Jeannene:

Well That's a good thing because I don't want to absorb the conflict. I don't want to smile and go you do whatever you want

Kevin:

That's all fine

Jeannene:

Bang the cup. I'll just work hard. I didn't even

Kevin:

notice I was banging the cup, so it was perfectly alright Well, there's that. You could

Jeannene:

deny that, that what's occurring is occurring. I think I did,

Kevin:

actually. You

Jeannene:

might have. In the end, it doesn't matter, but I guess what we're talking about is, is being honest. And, and if you denied it, well, I'd go, okay, well, we'll note if it happens again. These, these are my concerns. And

Kevin:

so that's what it's really about. Honesty.

Jeannene:

Yeah, it is. It, it kind of. But it's, it's about

Kevin:

self honesty, isn't it? Yeah.

Jeannene:

And I think there is something about if you're going to set out to please people, and maybe it's a bit separate from the manipulating people, but to please people, to keep people happy, you're not keeping yourself happy. There's a risk that what will happen is you'll absorb any conflict that that could occur because you want the other person to be happy and you're not going to be. I think there's times when it's appropriate not to tell everybody everything. You know, Oh, I really don't want that jacket.

Kevin:

Maybe not necessary. Walking down the street, go. Look, I don't like your shoes. Probably not necessary.

Jeannene:

Maybe not.

Kevin:

Maybe not.

Jeannene:

But there is a time in amongst, and let's think about those people who are close to you. Whether it's your friends, whether it's your partner, whether it's your family members. That it's worth thinking about, are you actually being honest with yourself and therefore them? Because the risk of people pleasing is you're not going to be your authentic self. What do you reckon?

Kevin:

I think sometimes when I think about being really me, even amongst people who I'm close to, I get embarrassed just thinking about it. So, I don't know if you'd call it people pleasing, but it's like Like example. Yeah. Yeah. We both like something on Facebook, which was about the crow and all the, you know, it collect shiny Ah, can I tell the people? Yeah. Yeah. It's very cool. It was very, very cool. But the last bit of that is. I can't remember the words now, but like making a really big, big fuss when you see friends.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

So it was a post on Facebook that said, I love the crows. I want to be like the crows because crows run around the road. Picking up shiny things. That's right. And then they go up and down the road, not worrying.

Kevin:

Oh, skipping and hopping, skipping and hopping. Yes, yes.

Jeannene:

Regardless of,

Kevin:

yes,

Jeannene:

of how the day is.

Kevin:

Mm hmm.

Jeannene:

And Also, when they see their friends, they scream.

Kevin:

That's right. They scream. So it's the last bit, so Often when I'm arriving here, for instance, I think I'm going to get like a seitanine, and I'll just be able to greet her and go, Ah! And I don't. Okay. Inside, I do, but outside, I don't. And I don't because, I don't, it's like, it's maybe partly habit, but it's also like, that's not the image. That I, I need to project, you know, these people know me like this, so I need to keep that in. And if there's a, there's a big part of me, can I not fuck that?

Jeannene:

Just, you

Kevin:

know, just be you. If that's what you want to do, then do that.

Jeannene:

Let's, let's be honest with the listeners, Kevin. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard. Once we do open the door, I'll go, ah!

Kevin:

We did today. Yeah, but anyway, it was just an example, now you've just ruined it.

Jeannene:

It's a great example.

Kevin:

It was just an example. So I get that. It takes me all the way back to where I was. I get that sometimes with, um, with friends, you know.

Jeannene:

I think it's hard to be yourself. I mean, you've brought up something. When I think about being

Kevin:

myself and

Jeannene:

I get embarrassed,

Kevin:

I start telling myself off. I go, no, you don't need to tell myself off. That's me. It's okay.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Look, I think there's different parts of us. Yes. That show ourselves in different arenas. Like there's a group of people that I'm really comfortable to banter and to be foolish with and

Kevin:

yeah,

Jeannene:

and that's fun and lively and I mean, we've had fun with the podcast, Kevin and, and you and I are randoming all over the place and that's been wonderful. I can't do that with everybody. I, I put on my professional self and, and I, I think I move into that quite easily and well and I'm comfortable that I'm not absorbing the conflict, but I'm just accessing a different part of me.

Kevin:

Yeah. Anyway, it was kind

Jeannene:

of bad, but

Kevin:

you,

Jeannene:

you do make a really good point because I just think sometimes there's a lot of us out there that. In times of our life, I think of my early times then, all I did was became or was a colourless person because it would have been too confronting for me and perhaps anyone else that I was with. So I absorbed it all.

Kevin:

There you go. That's, that's a good explanation. Yeah. Yeah. Try and damp. My spirit down and my spirit is saying, I don't want to be damp down. We don't need to be damp down. But you know, there is sometimes you're right. I go into the local supermarket. Although that's not even that can be, I don't want to be all over the place with the, with the people at the checkout,

Jeannene:

but

Kevin:

sometimes I am

Jeannene:

fine. That's the best place to be all over the place. So I, I don't know. There's a particular brand. I, I go to that supermarket and I'm sure that they've been encouraged to talk to the customers. Okay. And so they gently say, how was your day? Or what are you doing

Kevin:

tonight? How was your

Jeannene:

day? What are you doing tonight? Have you got an eventful night? And I'll go, No, but I have really enjoyed, uh, yesterday I did my pole dancing and I'm really sore today so I'm going to be putting my feet up and I say something a bit ridiculous and they look at me like. Oh my goodness, you're an interesting thing, or that's an interesting topic, and you've made my day. You've kind of jolted me into living and listening,

Kevin:

because

Jeannene:

I just think sometimes those things, how are you? I'm good. And you good? Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. Just

Kevin:

good. Oh, good. That's just good. It's

Jeannene:

great.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah. You good? Are you good?

Kevin:

And I see people at meetings.

Jeannene:

You know, I'm not so good.

Kevin:

Yeah. I'm not,

Jeannene:

I'm not real good at all, actually.

Kevin:

And people say to me, they say, Hi Kevin, how are you? And I say, yeah, I'm so so, whatever it is I am. And I say, how are you? And they'll say, yeah, yeah, good. I go, you're a liar. Because it's obvious they're not feeling well. They'd

Jeannene:

love when you come up to them, wouldn't

Kevin:

they? Well, yeah, I get to have some authority in that position. So they Depending on who they are and how they are, there might be some pushback, but quite honestly, they'll go, quite often, rather, they'll go, Oh, yeah, actually. Blah, blah, blah, and they start to tell me. I'll, I'll find someone else for them to talk to, who could tell them what to do next, and I'll wander off. I'll say, well, had somebody phoned me, I'd forgotten that I'd left a message for them, but it had been nearly two weeks. So they phoned me, And they left a, a message that was somewhat unusual for them.

Jeannene:

Mm

Kevin:

hmm. So, and it ended with, so I'll talk to you soon then Kevin, I hope you're well. And I'm like, okay. It's like, did I do something? Did I fart last time I saw you? Possibly. Possibly. Anyway, I just, I don't know, forget it, you know. And I spoke to them the next day and it was, they were returning my call from two weeks ago.

Jeannene:

Oh.

Kevin:

Yeah. Why was I telling you that? Yeah, that's why because it's like I'd stepped out of your usual role. Yeah, my usual role So here's the square that I see myself in with that person

Jeannene:

Yeah,

Kevin:

and I stepped out of it and I don't like that I don't like that. I see my life like that and I think as I'm

Jeannene:

In the usual role, or the stepping out, I'm not sure. Oh

Kevin:

no, I like the stepping out. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think it's either as I'm getting older, or maybe I'm getting a bit wiser, or maybe it's both of those. I'm put up with that this and this, and I do more and more of the I'll be more and more me. So if I want to walk down the road singing, then I will, you know, and if I want to open my verandah in my new place and sing, even though I know the people down below walking past will be able to hear me, I will, you know, and those are just little examples, but I'll be me.

Jeannene:

That sounds fabulous.

Kevin:

Yeah. So we had a little break, discovered that we were using the wrong microphone.

Jeannene:

I wasn't going to tell them that.

Kevin:

I know, but I did.

Jeannene:

Okay. Because I'm

Kevin:

not people pleasing. I'm doing exactly as I want to do.

Jeannene:

I noticed. It's real annoying.

Kevin:

And then, we had to struggle getting the music in.

Jeannene:

Oh my god.

Kevin:

We're doing the editing.

Jeannene:

Save me people, save me. It's really

Kevin:

important that people know the technical details. It's got windy, look how windy it's got.

Jeannene:

What I was going to say.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Is that, And you've heard me say this before, it takes a lifetime to find out who you are.

Kevin:

Ah, that's what we were talking about. Yeah, it does. Yes.

Jeannene:

The thing I wanted to say about that, and it's a little bit where you were going with the last thing that you were talking about, is that, you know, We've got the privilege of age and let's hope wisdom to have worked through some of this stuff. Right.

Kevin:

Working through it,

Jeannene:

working through it and making a choice to be our authentic selves if we like that. Or we make that choice. Yeah. So I've been thinking about that and I can remember when I first started to realize that That I don't have to people please anymore. I can actually ask myself, what do I want? And what's right for me? And how will I answer this? It was incredibly liberating. And I remember thinking, Wow, I can actually say no to something. Or I can say, no, that doesn't really suit me. Or I can find a way that feels right for me, but to answer the person, honestly, and from my perspective, and it's okay. It doesn't have to threaten their world. So I was really excited about that, realizing that I could be assertive. And then what happened is I realized that some people don't like it.

Kevin:

That's right. They didn't like

Jeannene:

my opinion. They didn't want to hear me say no. And what I realized is that some people persecute you if you start to have.

Kevin:

But they do that with all kinds of things.

Jeannene:

Absolutely.

Kevin:

Like I've discovered that many different things. But with the podcast, you know, saying to people like, Hey, you want to listen to the podcast? Six weeks later, how'd you go? Did you listen to the podcast? Oh, yeah. What did you think of it? Well, it's not my thing. That's what my friend said, by the way. I've just remembered what he said. It's not my thing, but I guess it's alright. Okay. No.

Jeannene:

thing.

Kevin:

No. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I feel lost where I was going. I think I can overshare with this, like, being my authentic self. I told you I couldn't tell everybody. Of course. I did recently. So, I'm on a dating site, but I'm not seriously on a dating site. I suppose. Occasionally I get a message and whatever, so this, this lovely person messaged me and I had a look at her profile and I went, oh yeah, interesting. So we had a little chat and she just said out of the blue, so tell me something about you that I don't know. I didn't give it much thought, maybe I should have. And I said, I do a podcast with a friend. She said, oh yeah, what's it about? And I said, here you go, here's a link. That ended that really, you know,

Jeannene:

there was a little

Kevin:

more to and fro, but that was the end

Jeannene:

of it. Well, it sounds like that they will have learnt all about you.

Kevin:

Yeah, but that's the thing, people listening to our podcast don't actually learn about us. They learn bits of us.

Jeannene:

Of course. Yeah. And really, not everyone's thing isn't going to be listening to you. Uh, podcast. Some people just It should

Kevin:

be.

Jeannene:

Okay. They've just discovered that we're on Amazon. So all the

Kevin:

parts of

Jeannene:

Kevin are out today. Where? Here's Yel.

Kevin:

We're on Amazon.

Jeannene:

Oh my God. I

Kevin:

accidentally discovered it the other day. Our podcast is on Amazon. I went, well, our podcast is on Amazon. I feel quite proud. Then I went, yeah. Nobody's listening to it though.

Jeannene:

I know. It'd mean shit if no one's listening to it.

Kevin:

Well, sorry, you guys are listening to it, yeah.

Jeannene:

And I am grateful.

Kevin:

Yeah, me too.

Jeannene:

Well, either way, we're going to have this chat and we're going to do this podcast because it is around enjoying the whole process and learning and being our authentic selves.

Kevin:

That's how we started.

Jeannene:

Yeah. And because we're not out to please them.

Kevin:

No, we were sitting downstairs in your office and you were, I don't want to please them, they're

Jeannene:

the listeners, so here's what happens for them. For the second

Kevin:

or third time you mentioned doing a podcast and I got you to, drew you out to tell me a bit more about what had happened and why you weren't doing it and what you were wanting to do and I just simply said, I'd do it. And planted the seed. And then, you know, so we started doing it some time later. But we do it because we want to do it.

Jeannene:

That's right.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

So we turned up here and.

Jeannene:

So it's not about them. It's

Kevin:

about

Jeannene:

us. We don't care. We don't care about you. We don't care about you out there.

Kevin:

Actually, she's right. It's a

Jeannene:

bit rude. Quite rude.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Oh, look, I think what I'm loving about this conversation is really starting to explore and hopefully our listeners are starting to think about. Am I actually answering this question? Whether it's actual, uh, a question that someone offers you or a conversation that you're having where you get to answer the person how you want and how you're really feeling or thinking in the moment and it's maybe not what they want to hear. And you're going to say it anyway, because it's for them to resolve, not for you to absorb.

Kevin:

True. And also, I would add to that, not doing things and going places to please somebody else. So I found myself really thinking about it, you know, when I'm like, Oh, okay, so I better find some socks to put on when I'm going out. Hang on a second. Do I want to go? Sometimes the answer is no, I don't, but here's the reason why I'm going to go. Sometimes the answer is yep, I do want to go, and sometimes the answer is just no, therefore I'm not going.

Jeannene:

Sometimes I will want to go, or I'd want something to happen, or I'll say yes, because My core concern is the care for the other person. And so that will trump what's actually happening for me and that I'm okay with. Yeah, that I choose. Yeah, that's fine. And that feels like a choice around caring for the other person. Yeah. But it, and it might. Deny me somewhat, but I'm okay with that. But that still feels like an active choice around caring for the person rather than absorbing what's happening for them and, I better go and care for them. No, that's

Kevin:

different. Yeah, that's people pleasing. So I went with a friend, not that long ago, a few days ago, Do you see Eric Idle? Do you know who Eric Idle is? No, I don't. Eric Idle is one of the co creators of, well they were all creators, but he was part of um, Monty Python.

Jeannene:

Oh! The Life

Kevin:

of Brian.

Jeannene:

Oh.

Kevin:

All that kind of stuff. And so, he must be older than me, he must be in his eighties. So he was on at Hamer Hall. Okay. We had seats there, it was really good. But the way that he did it, I guess partly because of his age, I mean he survived cancer. All sorts of things, was that, it was just him, and he had what he called a virtual band. It was this band, it was all set up, so there was this huge screen behind him. And occasionally he'd do something with the band playing, and he'd be playing a guitar. He did a lot of, of his show, and it was A couple of hours, more than two hours, um, with a break in the middle, just like normal theatre type stuff. He did a lot of it with just clips from the things that they'd done, and then clips from his personal life. And I knew that he was a friend of George Harrison's, although they were friends, but I didn't realise how close they were, so a lot of it, as time went on in the performance, a lot of it was him. Um, talking about George Harrison just before he died and his relationship with George Harrison and all this has got to do with it. Yeah, I

Jeannene:

was going in. The story is relevant. Because?

Kevin:

Because. Because of choices. He makes a choice.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

To travel the world doing that and talk about the bits that he wants to talk about. Like, you know, I think a lot of people there would have been expecting a lot more talk about Monty Python. There was a lot of talk about the life of Brian, which Was only, they, EMI were going to fund it, and then when the head of EMI read the script and it was, in his words, blasphemous, they withdrew the funding. And George Harrison mortgaged his house, sold some other things so that they could raise enough money to do the movie. I loved George Harrison's, was asked by, someone interviewed him and said, So, what motivated you to, you know, mortgage your house and sell all this other stuff? You know, why did you do that? Because I wanted to see the movie.

Jeannene:

So,

Kevin:

so yeah, so a lot of, um, so it's like, you and I have to talk about choices. So it seemed to me looking as a, just a member of the theater looking down at him and thinking back to all the stuff that he'd done and being reminded of it, seeing him on the screen on this big screen and he's talking about what they're doing. And seemed to me that. He could do that show in a number of ways, and he chose to do it in a way that was really personal to him, so no apology to everybody watching.

Jeannene:

And no pleasing of all the individuals, and so it sounds like he had to absorb not only just some people's rejections, but just the risk that this wasn't going to happen the way he wanted it to. And, and I think that's part of what this discussion's about today is risking The rejection from people because what's happening is when you start speaking up and saying what you want and how you want it, it's not going to fit with everybody.

Kevin:

You said that earlier. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. People react in all sorts of ways. I would expect people to react like that. I don't like that, I don't like you anymore. But they don't, they react in quite a silent voice as well. It's like you're at one of those humps in the road and they sort of go around you. So, and my reaction to that is one of two. It's like, hey, come back here. Or, I am feeling visible. You know, like, yeah,

Jeannene:

yeah. That's the thing I said when I started to become assertive. What I found is that people didn't like it. And they do the grunting thing or they go, what are you doing that for? Or, or there'd be something to push you back into the old way. And the really tough stuff is finding a way to help yourself stand and keep staying with your true self, or keep saying the no or whatever it is, which is some of the toughest stuff to do, I think,

Kevin:

but quite

Jeannene:

liberating when you get to this age.

Kevin:

I go back. So I'll give you an example. I'm very fresh in my mind. Somebody talking about the recent USA election. You know, everybody's been talking about it.

Jeannene:

Oh, that thing.

Kevin:

Yeah, that thing. So, and a friend of mine said, I don't think it's such a bad idea. I said, what do you mean? Trump getting in? Yeah, you're joking, aren't you? They go, yeah, well, you know, that it makes much difference really, and they went on and on and on, and I thought, I'm not going to agree with that, but I was tempted

Jeannene:

to

Kevin:

join in, but I didn't, and there was an invitation, and I still didn't, and then the conversation finished, and a couple of hours later, I was with them again, and I said, look, I totally disagree with you, and this is why I disagree, it doesn't matter why I disagreed, and they just went, Oh, yeah, I think you're probably right. Oh, how lovely. Well, yeah, or is it? Are they just pleasing me? They

Jeannene:

may be. But

Kevin:

that's not my But what was lovely

Jeannene:

about that, I really liked, is that You took space in the heat of the moment. You didn't voice yourself because maybe it sounded like you measured what was going to come back at you and you took some space. And then at another quieter time, you spoke gently for yourself going. Actually, I don't agree with any of that. And you were able to say it in a calm, supportive way of yourself. And then The person sounds like they were able to receive it. So whether they agreed with it or not, it becomes irrelevant. But the main thing for me is that time and space, because sometimes you're talking with people that are quite reactive and And I will sometimes, that's when I use the timeout thing, where I'll go, Ah, I'm going to think about that. Because I'm going to either calm my reactions or theirs, and then I'm going to come back and tell them what I really think.

Kevin:

I can remember learning all about that, like, like my, my sponsor in the daytime was like, So, just go for a walk. Go for a walk around the block. I say to him, then what? I say, go for another walk around the block. Until you feel a bit calmer, keep walking around the block. And then working with you, the time out thing. And other parts of, other friends and things watching. Basically finding out who I am and how I want to deal with things. And now that's a typical thing with me, I go, hmm. I don't know about this, or I do know about it, but I feel like I'm being invited into an argument. Yeah. Which I don't want. So I won't say anything. Yeah.

Jeannene:

And I think sometimes it takes a while for us, you, people to really think about, what is my opinion here? What is this? The response that I want to give here because I'm really not sure what it is. So if I have a space, then I come back and be quite assertive. And I think that that that space for me is the breath where I go, Oh, and just not take on any conflict, but go, Oh, what, what do you want to do with this now, Janine? And then I come back in and then I can go, nah, don't agree. Really don't like what you're saying. I'm not really sure about that in in these ones, but this is what I think. And I've been able to come back quite assertively. And that feels like a good representation of me. It's not confronting, I hope, well, sometimes it can be, for the other person, but I'm going to say it in a way that supports me and supports them as in it doesn't hold a threat or anything

Kevin:

else. And it's not going to start an argument. It's not an argument. This is just like, this is my view. Yeah. They

Jeannene:

might start the argument, but I don't have to jump in. Yeah, that's right.

Kevin:

So it was about this time in our podcast where I could Ask those people who are listening if they've got a bicycle. I'm looking for a bicycle. No,

Jeannene:

it's not

Kevin:

that ad break. We can't have an ad break here. Kevin looking for bicycle.

Jeannene:

No, no, it's not. No, no, fuck off. No. You're

Kevin:

not allowed to

Jeannene:

say that.

Kevin:

I can't

Jeannene:

say shh.

Kevin:

I

Jeannene:

didn't. What are you talking about?

Kevin:

It's me who says that. Oh, that's right. See, books, remember? Yeah. Stay in the books. Yeah. This has

Jeannene:

been an interesting chat once again,

Kevin:

have we finished?

Jeannene:

I think it's about the time.

Kevin:

I don't know. I'm just checking here

Jeannene:

It's not that we can't say more because we can always say more.

Kevin:

Yeah

Jeannene:

Like I've been saying people for those of you who've been able to listen to our Some of our previous podcasts, when I'm talking about conversations, this is a conversation and often it can be the conversation starter and there can be many following it. And I look forward to hearing or learning about or hoping that you have more conversations with those around you.

Kevin:

So what you're really saying is this is just the beginning.

Jeannene:

It is.

Kevin:

Yeah. Okay. That sounds good.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

Right, so what do we do now? Do we have to sing? No?

Jeannene:

No. I won't put you on. More adverts?

Kevin:

More personalised Kevin adverts? No? No. Okay. No. Alright.

Jeannene:

Thanks for listening and we'll welcome you back in again. Sorry for those avid listeners that we haven't been as faithful as we have been able to be in the past.

Kevin:

All three and a half of them. Well, that

Jeannene:

sounds

Kevin:

a bit resentful, doesn't it? It does.

Jeannene:

It

Kevin:

does. Cut

Jeannene:

that out.

Kevin:

Okay. Yeah. No, I won't. I'll be resentful instead. All right. Thank you for listening.

Jeannene:

I hope I've got some compassionate people out there for me. It's It's building, it's building as we're speaking, Kevin.

Kevin:

It's great being listening to me.

Jeannene:

Have a great week, and we'll look forward to chatting to you next time. Bye for now.

Kevin:

Bye for now.

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Jeannene

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Kevin

Host