Inward Journey

Addictions - Episode 37

• Kevin Bergin • Season 1 • Episode 37

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Jeannene:

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. You're here with Janine and Kevin.

Kevin:

And here I am. Kevin.

Jeannene:

We're recording this on one jury land. And we want to acknowledge our elders past and present. Yeah.

Kevin:

And today. We're going to talk about. Addiction.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

We're not exactly sure, but we're going to say that it'll be interesting.

So don't take drugs in. Just don't take them. That's a lot of helpers. If somebody said that to me, I'm sure they did. A lot of punch her on the news. Yeah. So maybe that's not going to work. I told them to bugger off. Same sort of concept. Yeah, same sort of thing.

Kevin:

So, what is it?

Jeannene:

Addictions. Do you want to start? So it's about,

Kevin:

I don't know. I guess I. Have some authority. I don't know. I just assume that everybody knows about me, but just in case people don't. I started using drugs. When I was 13 years old and I become addicted to them and I stopped when I was 24. I was really lucky to still be alive. And I'd spent time in asylums and time in prison. I ended up being out on the streets for. 10 years homeless. That was very, very, very, very sick. And. Not by my own hand. Initially, I managed to stop. and I asked for help and I took the help. And I've got well. but I thought that I was no longer. An addict. So after 19 years, The first five years when I stopped using drugs, I had a lot of support. And then after that, I was really on my own and I did really well. And I had a university degree. I. Started a great career in writing games and then moved on to doing other software. And I wrote lots of books about it. And I thought. I was done. And I was kind of right. And I was kind of wrong. And after 19 years, I started using drugs again in the form of alcohol And I did that for 11 years and, then stopped and I went so narcotics anonymous and what I pointed to me. Saying all of this is what I discovered. In the codex anonymous. Maybe within the first year. It's the, I'm an addict.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

And for me. That doesn't change.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

Yep. I'm just, I'm an addict in recovery, so I'm not in active addiction. And the other was being an addict. Let's be a drug addict. In fact,

Jeannene:

it's interesting because when you talk about it, your life experience is been with hard drugs and harder drugs and, a very heavy addiction. So, I guess when you talk about addictions, that's where you come from. When I think about addictions for myself, I think about. Not necessarily. Sorry. but I think about addictions widely in terms of that we can all have addictions. And we can have addictions to many things. And they can be small. They can be chocolate coffee and they can be smoking. They can be. Shopping there can be. Alcohol and they can be. Mild or severe. So again, it's a continuum.

Kevin:

All of them can be mild. Yeah. With making, I think.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Yeah. And I also think that there's a level of addictions where we can be dictated to people. And, emotions like anger. Those ones in particular spring to mind. And I think that there's all levels of dependencies. That we can have. And I guess the question that I would want to ask people is, is this. Getting in the way of me being who I want to be or getting in the way of life.

Kevin:

That's a good question. Is it. Defending my

Jeannene:

relationships.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

So, and it's interesting. Cause as I've worked with it in the past and Kevin, I don't know if I've done this with you. Like if someone's in the room, We're not going back. That's fair enough. Is like if I would sit in the counseling room and there'd be. Myself and the other person or cup or depending what it is. And if there's addiction, it's almost like I'd put the thing in between. Me and them because the addiction would be the thing that, yeah. You. Relate to it becomes the buffer. Yep. The addiction becomes like a. Like a friend that you need to have, and then you look after and your support and yeah. Yeah, we

Kevin:

didn't do that, but we didn't because I was already dealing with dude.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah. But people.

Jeannene:

Become defensive or. After the thing. Let's just say let's use gambling, for example, it's the thing that I need to look after all. No, I'm, I'm busy after, Because I have to make sure that I look after the thing. That I'm doing or the things that feels, So important to me or I'm so compelled to do. So that becomes the thing that gets in the way of the relationships and therefore, It's worth thinking about what addictions do we have?

Kevin:

Yeah. So for me, it's like, Not in my addiction was with drugs. And as you said, sort of heavy trucks, I ended up doing narcotics. I'm for a long time when I stopped drugs were bad. And it took some time before I realized that trucks were just not bad or good. Yeah. Drug site. My life. Yeah. I was definitely as a 13 year old. On the way out. A very, very bad place. We don't want

Jeannene:

to say to people that drugs can save your life.

Kevin:

I haven't finished. Yeah,

Jeannene:

good.

Kevin:

Drug saved my life only for a short period of time.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

And then if you treat it, as you were talking about like a friend, they turned against, we very quickly. I learned became a nine minute and it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare because I couldn't get out of it. I couldn't stop. And I was surrounded. Mostly by people who could take it or leave it. I wasn't like that. From the moment I started. And so the moment I stopped us from searching so 24. I took drugs until August. Unconscious. I don't think I slept. Period of time. I did the same scary stuff. Yeah. Diana many times. Yeah. So, but my point was, what was my pump? But it saved me for a while.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Okay. How many did it. Didn't

Jeannene:

so what you're actually saying, and then I think about this is that drugs can be this or addictions. Not drugs. Addictions can be. These things that offer us an escape and this. Uh, Skype can often be from feelings. And they can be. Very difficult feelings to process and, distress and. Can be abuse or despair or powerlessness or helplessness. And many things. The interesting thing as I've worked with people to recover from addictions. That it's been very difficult for them because as they. Start to. Not use their addictions, then what is uncovered? Is these feelings., Escaped rum. Often for a very long time. Come back. They come back. And then what happens is I don't have my tool, which is the addiction. The thing that has helped me cope or this time I haven't got my way of escaping. And then I've got all these vulnerable feelings that I'm need to address on there to look at. And then if I haven't got the tools around holding these vulnerable feelings, We've got a major dilemma for the person emotionally.

Kevin:

You're still way back there. Wherever way back there was.

Jeannene:

Yeah. So you started, when you're very young, then you've got.

Kevin:

That's

Jeannene:

right. Yeah. So emotionally people can be very stunted.

Kevin:

Yep.

Jeannene:

And, if you're going to take something away, you've got to replace it with something. Yeah. It's got to be replaced with something healthy or good or, and safe, loving connections. Yeah, so. I don't care what they are safe, loving connections to. Beautiful places or cuddles from. A dog or. I looked at Asher. Oh, and, and loving relationships and, good connections and all of those sorts of things, but good connections do self.

Kevin:

Yeah. Initially it's about removing. It was about removing myself. From all of those influences and putting myself in a place. Whether that didn't exist on even more than the. Where I got lots and lots of good support and feedback. And, and people I could relate to.

Jeannene:

And I have

Kevin:

somebody both times. I've been very fortunate. Narcotics anonymous gave me an awful lot. I know that it's some toasted pogroms. Uh, we're often not popular, but there are a lot of stock for really people and they work

Jeannene:

And it sounds like they do replace. The addictions with connections. And, what they do with, tools. Yeah. And with.

Kevin:

Very strongly. Going through the program is what gives you the tools? Cause yeah. It gets a lot of rubbish out at the Y. Allows you to. Be at peace with yourself and with others around you to the best you can. Find out who you are. And then use those tools. You've been given it all the support that you've been given. So for life, basically.

Jeannene:

And I think often think about safe attachments. So it's changing your attachment to things by, being around people, without the drug or whatever. The drug is. Yeah. And I think so they're really good things. If I was to talk about myself, I haven't been a person who's struggled with addictions. Though I can say that, uh, I've had, uh, a relationship with alcohol that I. Want to. Be conscious of and be careful off. I've had a lot of alcoholics in my. Family extended family. And

Kevin:

which is quite common.

Jeannene:

Yes.

Kevin:

People who are careful about it, or people who become an alcoholic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeannene:

And so I have to be careful not to be too hard on myself, around those things. And there's been times when I've had abstinence from. Alcohol and times where I'm, learning to have a, uh, kind relationship with myself with alcohol. and know that it can be a substitute at times. So, so again, it's a working relationship. But I also think in my earlier years or no, not that I had bulemia and so that's an addiction to a particular behavior. That's to foods that's not healthy. and so I needed to recover from that. And then it learned. To replace that behavior. And I think some of the stuff. That I worked with in my early days and training of counseling. Was really around that core understanding of myself to help me make sense of myself and to replace. Some poor behavior that I'd had trying to survive my growing years as well. So I had people around me who were alcoholics. and had other issues. Other addictions.

Kevin:

Projections just as. Uh, to deal with the word is. Oh, I remember anx. Externally. In the middle of the night, a long time ago now coming across. A friend. Who clearly had problems with food.

Jeannene:

Hmm.

Kevin:

Devouring a liter of ice cream. like there was learned somewhere at Hodge. I was just shocked. They didn't know what to.

Jeannene:

Um,

Kevin:

once again, I was just in shock. I tried to talk to them about it, but yeah. It wasn't something where they were going to talk to me about. It really took me back. But it's the same kind of, what's the word? Addiction. It's not addiction. Those. The second kind of obsession.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

As I experienced with drugs. Yeah.

Jeannene:

I think there were things. I would want to say about it is when I've. Worked with people or I've been with myself around, let's talk about addictions, widely. Is that I want to say that. It's there for a reason. It's not there for no reason. What I was trying to say. So. So that would be

Kevin:

saved me temporary. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

For a short period. Yeah,

Jeannene:

because I want to understand and talk about our attitude towards people who have issues with addictions. I think it's really important because. Why would a person do that? Because are they they're trying to survive something? Um and I think it's really important not to judge and I think. The

Kevin:

stigma around addiction in general. Yeah. Yeah. It's not as bad as it used to be. Yeah, well, Decades ago. I mean I'm different. I've always been open about it, but most people wouldn't say that they drank it. Talk about having trouble with addiction.

Jeannene:

And I think also from the other point of view, those people who don't have addictions towards those person or the divisions. I think that there can be. That. Judgment and the. Disconnection and the criticism that actually happens. To those people. And again, if you're thinking about projection, then they often can be rejecting onto person that you've got an issue, but they're not looking at themselves. Well,

Kevin:

I remember my parents hadn't been committed to it, assign it when I was still a young. I was about 16. And a psychiatrist that I was doing was said, yeah, just for three days. But it took me into, Evaluate me. And I don't know. I never did. To me about, I don't know what he took to my parents about. At the end of the three days, he. Coming back in. And, when they came out of his office, But I was so pissed off. I imagine given my conversations. And he told me that I had a problem with drugs. And have it have said something really smart ass too. I had a good idea at the moment. That's the problem. But he'd clearly told my parents.

Jeannene:

The

Kevin:

same thing and. Hey. I remember him. He used to. You didn't pull any punches. So. I would really like. I remember my dad was really angry. Also, what you want is to show you.

Jeannene:

Um,

Kevin:

I don't know what he wants at some magic wand. Yeah,

Jeannene:

of course.

Kevin:

Yeah. Are you going to, he didn't get it.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah. Didn't work. It was good for me. I go down.

Jeannene:

And that time.

The prime reason why I would understand addictions occur. Is because of disconnection. And so what happens is somebody needing to replace or to pop in something. To create a connection. So then made an experiment many years ago. You may have heard this one. Kevin, I think I've told you about it. They did some experiments with rats and heroin. And so what they did is yeah. And so the original. Research that they Dead or experiments that they did. What's with these rats and some reps, they offered them heroin. And some rabbits they did not. And then they watched over time that when the rats were offered heroin, That they would become addicted. And so their conclusions were based on that. And then they realized many years later, That the experiments were faulty. So what they ended up doing was. Offering heroine to rents, but they put them in a cage. They made sure that they had other bats there. So that the head mates, they made sure that they had things to do for them. So whether they had things for the rats to play with, then made sure they will, well fed. And also that they were given water. So they were given all these things in their environment were supportive and it had all the resources and everything. And then they offered them heroin. And what happens with the rats is they would taste it and they would check it out, but they didn't want it because they would go back to their environment. And if they had all the things in their environment, That supported them and made them well, they didn't need it and they didn't go to it. I hadn't heard that before. Ah, and it's all about. being disconnected when those things, when people are deprived, Of those loving, safe connections of. Good food and clothing and shelter. They're the basic things. But even beyond that safe touch and., Valued discussions and. Valued. Experiences and all of those things and being appreciated and being loved and all those. What we would see as basic things, but. Aren't always in people's lives. Again, we can be tricked by the, glossy pictures or the thing that people present on the outside. But inside those worlds, people can be very deprived. And so I don't want to judge people around addictions. I don't want to judge myself if I, struggle in areas I want to know and be kind, but I also want to keep coming back. Where am I disconnected? How do I need to be connected to myself? And what are the safe ways I can work through it. I guess that's. The way I see it. Which would you add? A hundred percent, right. As far as I'm concerned, The opposite of addiction is connection. Absolutely. Sort of addiction is not. Not being addicted to the section connection. Yeah. There's some tough stuff to be done. If people want to. Stop their addictions though. Yeah. And it's not an easy road, but it's a healthy and it's a good road. If you don't do it alone. Don't do it alone. Yes. So you can't do it alone. Yeah. You need help. And you need support. Yeah. Maybe you'll need support for the rest of your life. I don't know how it's going to be for all the people. You need whatever you need. Yeah. I know that there's been, uh, a lot of. Connections with people in rural areas around alcohol. I know that there's been a lot of people. Connecting. Around. All the women who've, been wine drinkers or. That that's part of their lifestyle and something they laugh about and, but have noticed that that's become part of their crutch. Around survival in life. So there are groups and connections that people can make. If they want to make some different choices. Improving their health or their addictions. Yeah. So, yeah, we were just talking without recording. And, we were talking about stuff that maybe we shouldn't be recording, which is the. Opposite of addiction is connection and it doesn't really matter. So it was of recovery, whether it's drugs or alcohol or food or. Emotional dependence or something else. The recoveries about, It's always about. Connecting. Well, we connect shuffle. It's about connection. Yeah. I can't think of a better word. Really. It's always about connection and it doesn't matter whether you going to narcotics anonymous, alcoholics anonymous smart recovery. Or some other form of recovery or you go to a therapist. Particularly to deal with addiction. It's about connection and it's about making sure that, that you're surrounded by what you need. Yep. for me, it's always the two parts of connections. So it's how I connect with people. Or my surrounds. So the things. Um, which includes the people around me. Yeah. and how do I connect to myself? Because if I'm connecting to people around me and I'm disconnected from myself, they're not going to be. True or. Um, replenishing or replacing relationships. They're not going to be that soothing and supportive ones than I need. Because if I'm disconnected from myself, I'm not really connecting to them. So the two have to work in parallel. Does that make sense? It does. I was thinking that. Yeah, I guess I'm thinking the same thing. If I'm not looking after myself. That I'm disconnected from everybody else. It doesn't really matter. Yeah, how good the connections have been. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. And then that leaves you open to feeling at risk of reaching for that thing. That's been your crutch. Or. Yeah, reaching for it, but maybe not reaching for it in terms of picking it up. I think. A lot of people, miss. Is that if I'm not looking after oneself, I haven't picked up a drug or some other obsession. I can go into some other form of addiction. I'm not okay because I'm living the life that is miserable because I disconnected. Um, in my experience. That went on for a long time. And it could be a long time before. Okay. I'm going to actually do whatever, you know, destructive behavior. It. What I was doing before. Yeah. Does that make sense? No. It's like. Okay. So. I'm feeling disconnected, but I haven't picked up drugs, but I'm living alive from misery. But swimming, whether that's a day or a year or many years, Um, already affected by. The fact that I'm disconnected. And I think he can come out of. Unhelpful surrounding. So whether it's being surrounded by those people who use as well or drink or whatever your issue has been, or. Your choice of addiction might be. Anyway, let's say you come out of those surrounds. But the risk is you still have to deal with the body has to adjust to how am I going to be without this thing? And how am I going to relate to my environment differently? The environment. Socially. Yep. You know, to my family differently to myself Deming. And how am I going to relate? And I think that's a whole process and I think that's what you're talking about. Isn't it? Is that part of it? It is part of it, but I can be, Not actually. Inactive addiction. But disconnected from everything around me, looking like I'm doing well. I'm being completely visual. Which is stuff we talked about before. It's like, you know, just being, feeling completely empty inside. Many people can live like that. Yeah. I did it. Uh, 15 years, I guess. Because people can present this masked view of I'm doing so well. And be empty inside. What I was getting from around me. Let's look at you. You're doing so. Fabulous. Good luck. Got the nice friends. Yeah. And, Look, if you've published books. on you doing great in their flood have asked me if I was doing great and I would've been able to answer truthfully overcome. No. But I think. Many people can be in that circumstance. Kevin, I think that maybe they're not addicted to the, I don't know. Maybe then don't have problems with addictions. I don't know. No, but what happens is it's still not addressing the inward journey. And so it makes them vulnerable do addictions. That's true. Yeah. It certainly makes them vulnerable, which was destructive behavior. And maybe actually that is destructive. That's right. That's right. And so whenever. I don't have to. Pick up a needle. For it to be destructive behind. I don't have to pick up a. Drink a drink. The company, anything, Anything. Yeah. What you were talking about? It's like, So being able to sort of move down to that and move down with the addiction and what I surround myself with the people and the places and things. And I'm now. Starting to surround myself with people in places or things that are good from it. Yeah. Well, not always. Judge. Or people who are good for me and what people are not, it contained me. Sometimes. That's. Um, like, one alarm bell for me sometimes as well. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, attraction. Oh, That person's good. And then ledger. Actually good. Familiar. And they've been good for themselves. I think then that's there. Attaching thing. Yeah. So if you've had. Drugs as a replacement. Because you haven't been attached safely. Two people, two things. Then when the drug's taken away, then you have to learn, how do I attach to people? who are the good people that I can have? Do I trust? That's what I'm saying. Trust me, how do I trust them? And so there's this leftover. Body. That's been hurt Or unresourced and unsupported, and it's got to adjust to. How do I do this and work it out. So it really is that reparenting restructuring. Understanding yourself. That's really core to how do I work this out? And then again, being in relationships when you haven't had those models of how to do it. Well, Becomes tricky. There needs to be. No projecting. Yeah. That's our previous episode. On this is what we need to do. We need to be partnered with somebody and have 2.5 children and have a house and dog and, goldfish. I dunno why goldfish were important. But the point is, is that. Again, Those things can feel like they're important. But they can be very artificial and therefore that's why the inward journey is this the one that's more important. It has to be first. Yeah. First first, always first. Yeah. Okay. Good. So are you happy with your addictions? Uh, that, wasn't the question. Wasn't it. Sounds like it. Well, it's more, ah, your addictions ruining your life. Well, I guess it's the same question. Isn't it? No anyway. Yours is better. Why isn't it the same? Yeah. Oh, you happy with your addictions? No, no. Um, you happy that you're on drugs? Yeah, I guess that's what you went. Yeah. So don't take drugs in. Just don't take them. That's a lot of helpers. If somebody said that to me, I'm sure they did. A lot of punch her on the news. Yeah. So maybe that's not going to work. I told them to bugger off. Same sort of concept. Yeah, same sort of thing. I guess what I wanted to ask the listeners out there. is what they are doing. Regardless of what it is really. And often it will be behaviors. That our addictions. But. And varied behaviors, but what is what you're doing ruining your life, or is it ruining your relationships? Is it getting in the way of your relationships? And some people I imagine, would say, Uh, no, nobody else has to bother. It's just my issue with. At the time, why wouldn't it be true? Because it affects everybody. It's like throwing a pebble in the pond. The ripples, just go on beyond your side. And I knew you'd have some insight around that. Yeah, I like that. And sometimes it's really. It was always it's destructive. Yeah. Yeah. So it's that thing that gets in between. So. Maybe the question is. Starting to think about yourself around other things that I'm doing that. And not good for me. And therefore not good for others. Yeah. Correct. And also if it is affecting you, it's absolutely affecting other people. Yeah. One way or another. Just to kill the money. In fact, you could stop doing all of the addictive things and send me the money. Did you go with money because some, addictions. Haven't got issues around money. But I was thinking about it. Yeah, it's a good piece of advice. Anyway, right. I'm not giving you the money. Yeah, it. It's a bit odd. It's a bit different. Actually. It's a thought people let's put it like that. Well to give me the money. I thought, yeah. Maybe not great thought, not a good thought. Not as constructive thought. But anyway, I digress. It's still going to help. I guess the other thing I really wanted to say is. If you're one of those people that are sitting in denial and other people are saying, you've got a problem with D D. Then think about it. So, uh, um, things about that in 12 step programs to know. I don't even know I am lying. Well, denial is not another river. I think they're good things to think about. If somebody. He's repeatedly saying something to you. I think you might have an issue with this. Or if, different people in different arenas are saying, oh, I think you might have an issue with this, particularly when it's different people. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that could be occurring is that you're hiding some thing. If you're hiding something, then your either feeling a victim to it. You're embarrassed about it. You're ashamed of it. You're ashamed of yourself. And therefore it's worth addressing. So please consider all these things. People. Yeah. Yep. And not that it's ever easy. But making a start is where you start. Yeah. We're done now. So there's some thoughts for you to consider. Yep. And hopefully we've been helpful. And if we haven't, you can't have your money back. I know. Pay for this anyway. Oh, that's true. It's a pool. It's. There's a thought, there's a thought. Yeah. Okay.-Great. We haven't summed up everything around addictions. We can't. And it's really important to note that there's my view. And there's your view, Kevin, and my life experience and your life experience. But it's not. Inclusive of everything. And so I guess what I wanted to say is that this is a conversation. Yeah, that there are many conversations that can be had. Around all the topics that we're talking about. But particularly around this one, I think I balked at talking about this for such a long time. Because it's such an important topic. And again, addictions are so wide and. Your beautifully open about your past. And. I find it sometimes harder to be that open because I still have. Alive family members. There's no other way to put that. And. And I think it's really important to going to be, honest with ourselves and loving to those around us. And I don't. Want people out there, our listeners to feel. That we've. Projected on to you that you're at fault or you need to do anything. Differently now you need to address something. So there's no judgment here. And it feels like an important topic, but a hard topic and we're just skimming. Yeah, pretty much. It's not so much about addiction. It's about recovery. Although it's being recovered. But recovering has become life as. Yeah. Really, there's not much of a distinction between familiar. Okay. So we can just somebody who's a beginning of the journey. Yeah. If I go back so that I can relate to them. Um, so I can perhaps guide them. At least so I can listen to them. I know somebody who's listening. The only other thing I would say is you can't do it for somebody else. No. Um, since slot one, you call it safe anymore. No, it doesn't change it. Doesn't. I like that. Knowing that you're talking to somebody else's. Being on that journey. And as much as we know in the same place as you are, but can relate to is an awful. Big help. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah. Um, but I understand. Yeah. There's lots of organizations out there. I hope you go and seek out some support people. Yeah. There's loads. and I hope you found this, uh, touchy insightful. If not entertaining. And we'll look forward to chatting with you next time. Yeah. It was good. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks everyone. Bye.

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Jeannene

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Kevin

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