Inward Journey

Know Yourself - Episode 35

• Kevin Bergin • Season 1 • Episode 35

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Jeannene:

Welcome to our podcast today. You're here with Janine and Kevin, and our podcast is called Inward Journey. So all things relationships.

Kevin:

And we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people, owners of the land where we gather today to make this podcast. And I'm Kevin.

Jeannene:

I saved you, Kevin.

Kevin:

Oh yeah. Good. Yeah.

Jeannene:

So welcome everybody. So starting to think about

Kevin:

Lots of drugs?

Jeannene:

Stop it! I just hit him. Ouch! That was a bit delayed. Maybe it didn't hurt so much. Maybe? Maybe it didn't hurt so much? It didn't hurt. Okay. What we're going to be talking about today is know yourself.

Kevin:

So how do you do that?

Jeannene:

That was so sensitive,

Kevin:

Kev.

Jeannene:

What's that? Oh, I'm glad. How do you do that? Yeah, how'd you do that? How'd you? You sounded like a relative of mine. I won't tell you people who that is. Anyway.

Kevin:

I know who it is. Yeah. Yeah. But you made lots of notes.

Jeannene:

Oh my gosh!

Kevin:

So that's good.

Jeannene:

Do we need to tell people that?

Kevin:

Oh sorry. No.

Jeannene:

No, sorry was last podcast. Ha ha ha. Ha ha

Kevin:

ha.

Jeannene:

Now I did write some notes because I wanted to think about all the ways that it's healthy and good and worth knowing yourself. Cause I think it's, I think it's really important to, uh, how you are in life, but it's no good if you don't know yourself, you can't look after yourself, you can't care for yourself, you can't, um, operate well in groups or with people or in close relationships if you don't know yourself.

Kevin:

Yeah. And I'm remembering, I think it was something that you said a long time ago. No, I've forgotten it. I've forgotten whatever it was I was gonna say. Ah, but it takes a lifetime.

Jeannene:

I think it does take a lifetime to know yourself.

Kevin:

It's like, it's, it's an ongoing.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Forever thing.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

And if you think about it, at this age, and you at that age. I'm young. Well, the interesting thing is that, We're older and still learning things. And so if I'm turning 60 this year and I'm still learning things, then, then knowing yourself is a lifetime thing that we can all discover.

Kevin:

Janine's 60 soon. You can send him presents if you like.

Jeannene:

I don't do presents. Do hugs! Love hugs.

Kevin:

You can have the hugs. I'll have the presents.

Jeannene:

How are you going to go with, if they buy you socks and undies that are for me?

Kevin:

Oh yeah, that's not so good. That won't

Jeannene:

work. Well, it might work for you, but let's not go there. That's not what the podcast is about today.

Kevin:

Socks would be okay maybe, but undies, yeah,

Jeannene:

no. It is about knowing yourself what works. So that works for you people. I'm okay with that. How will we start this?

Kevin:

We already started.

Jeannene:

Oh, that's right.

Kevin:

We clearly don't know ourselves given what we've already spoken about.

Jeannene:

I think one of the big things for me is knowing how you process. That sounds a little bit complicated. Let me give you an idea. I know that, for example, if I've got to read something and then interpret it or I discuss it with some others. Often what happens is I need to have that time on my own reading it, because if there's distractions, I can't read and concentrate. I can't take it in because reading is one of the things that I struggle with. So I remember back in university or even before university when I was at TAFE back in Sydney, we'd have a group activity and we'd need to read an article and then discuss it. I would have to take myself off on my own to read it, to take it in. Otherwise I'd be really stressed because I, I just couldn't take it in quick enough. A very, very slow reader and comprehender. But once I got it,

Kevin:

Hmm.

Jeannene:

Oh, sharp. So I just needed that time on my own. And so sometimes for some of us, it might be the reading things or some of us, it might be we've been, I've been asked our opinion about something and for some of us, then we might take a little bit more time to process that or to understand that. And so what I hope that you're able to do is go, Oh, hang on a minute, let me just think about that. I'm not sure. I'll get back to you.

Kevin:

Yep.

Jeannene:

That feels like a kind thing to do. Do for yourself, but also for the other person to really offer them a genuine opinion, if you like.

Kevin:

Yeah, but when we're on our own, so when I'm on my own, taking your example, particularly when I'm writing, 90 percent of the time I'll write with extremely loud music on. Nobody except me gets and I can't explain how that works, but it does, it doesn't disturb me at all. It inspires me or it surrounds me and encourages me.

Jeannene:

Ah, that's great.

Kevin:

Yeah. But

Jeannene:

I might

Kevin:

sometimes get tired of it and turn it off, but mostly I don't.

Jeannene:

Well,

Kevin:

how

Jeannene:

I understand that is that that looks after the, the, Other part of your brain, while the artistic side can write away.

Kevin:

Ah, I see.

Jeannene:

Or it's the other way around. No,

Kevin:

that's the right way around. Yes,

Jeannene:

because what happens is you need to use your artistic or your technical brain with writing, but your other part of your brain, it really looks after that. And particularly for those people who are, you know, Sit on some sort of spectrum and neurodiversity, it's really helpful if that was one

Kevin:

of the other things we were maybe going to talk about, but

Jeannene:

as with our podcasts, often these things interrelate

Kevin:

and

Jeannene:

they overlap, but having music to help you concentrate and different types of music for you. It sounds like loud music. I know sometimes I really like classical to not listen to it, but to have it in the background.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Or there's, I've got some, is it country music that's almost rhythmical?

Kevin:

Yeah, yeah.

Jeannene:

And it's just of a particular genre or type of country music that I listen to so that it puts that part of my brain to rest or to use so I can get on and, and write. That's me.

Kevin:

Yesterday, I was doing some writing and listening to boogie woogie music. Ha ha ha ha ha! Boogie woogie? It's really good. Do you know what boogie woogie music is?

Jeannene:

I know, I haven't heard it for ages. It's an older term.

Kevin:

Yeah. You know what it is though. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's really good.

Jeannene:

Do the listeners know what it is?

Kevin:

We could play it to them. It's um, what is it? I don't know how to describe it, but it must have originated sometime in the late forties or fifties. The dancing looks a bit like that thing that they used to do with the hands and I can't remember any of the names. Anyway, traditionally I think it's played on the piano and it's really fast music, really, really fast and really upbeat. And people do incredibly dances too, almost, not almost, they're um, acrobatic.

Jeannene:

Okay. It's

Kevin:

really incredible. Oh yeah,

Jeannene:

now I've almost got that visual now.

Kevin:

Yeah. So it's uh. Okay. Writing to it is a lot of fun. It's like, it's not in the background.

Jeannene:

Yeah, so look it up, people.

Kevin:

Yeah, you have to look it up.

Jeannene:

YouTube,

Kevin:

YubiYubiTubi, there's lots of stuff on there. But I found one, I'm trying to remember her name. I think her name's Lafadee, something like that. She's walking along, this is on YouTube. She's walking along in a, like a plaza, and there's a public piano. And obviously it's staged, but anyway, it is a real public play. And she just walks up to the piano and starts playing this boogie woogie music. And it's incredible. And this guy walks up after a while and starts playing with her. So there's two of them playing. And I just thought, Oh, surely people are going to start dancing soon. And you know, like people gather around slowly, but They just take photographs and nobody dances. It's like that kind of music you can hardly keep still. So when I'm writing, I'm writing, bouncing around.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

Cool. Yeah. I was walking along on one of my walks recently, I was walking along and I had the headphones on. I don't always. Sometimes I don't have any technology with me at all. I just walk. So the only thing I'll have is my house keys or something like that. Anyway, I had headphones on. And I walked past these young girls and they all started giggling and looking at me and I got my zip undone or something and I checked and there's nothing wrong with me and I carried on walking and it was odd and I suddenly realised it was because they could hear the headphones as they walked past, hear the music.

Jeannene:

Were you doing a bit of a jig as you were walking? No,

Kevin:

I just had really loud music on. Oh, okay. And they could hear it, I think. So yeah,

Jeannene:

I think this podcast and this topic on knowing yourself feels really important because again, I mean, I guess we're talking about if those people who are studying or those people who are doing work in workplaces, people are starting to think about how, uh, the best ways for them to be productive, those sorts of things. ways to help them to be productive or to do their work well. I think those are really good, but I think it's really good knowing who you are and the ways you process. And I think one of the big ones for me is really knowing your vulnerabilities. Do you know that when you know where and how you're vulnerable, that makes you less vulnerable?

Kevin:

How does that work?

Jeannene:

Well, if I know that I'm sensitive to, it's hard to think of something in the moment, if I don't like shopping centers, for example, or they don't, cope as well with them. I might plan to go at a time where it's less busy, or if I don't like credit, for example, I might go at a time when I'm less busy. So then I'm not going to get agitated. And then, and then if I'm going with my partner or if I'm going with friend, et cetera, I don't want to agree to something that I'm going to get agitated or uncomfortable with or anxious with. I want to make sure that it's a good experience for me or for them, or I've got to find a way to settle myself so that I can go and be there for them if I choose to go with them.

Kevin:

Which is exactly where I was going to go. So it's fine with all the stuff that we have been talking about, which is when you're on your own. But when you with other people, then it's different. So if I'm in a work environment, then I can't play loud music.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Or if I'm sitting in a library, I like to go and sit in the library or I can play loud music, but I'd have to put headphones on.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

And yeah, it's okay. You have to adjust depending on where you are, so, and yeah. I like to plan things too. But yeah, I was caught by your description of shopping. I used to hate shopping. I would, I would literally write down pen and paper. I'd write down a list and then I'd put shops against them and I'd know exactly what I want and I'd be like a robot in the shop picking up this and then this and then this and then this paying for it in the next shop, pay for it, done. Now I'll just like a walk around shops and just look in the windows, walk around them and not buy anything.

Jeannene:

So if you think about that example, when you're going with someone, Greg's not a shopper.

Kevin:

Yep.

Jeannene:

I'm not a big shopper myself. However, sometimes I really like just going and pondering or looking. But if I have that plan and I'm going with him, Greg happens to be my partner and husband, just for those people who might not know that. Anyway, if I'm going and I have a plan of walking around and looking and things. That's not going to work with me if I'm going with him. So I know that sometimes that's exactly what I do. I want to be peaceful and I want to walk around. And so I want to be able to say to him, this is what I'm planning. Greg, is this going to work with you? And he might say, Oh no, there's no way I can do that today. So we might plan a lunch or something. And then I go off and do one part on my own. Knowing what works for you. I mean, I'm using the example of shopping, but it could be anything. It could be anything that you want to do and it's more about speaking up for yourself and knowing how much you are willing or comfortable with compromising for somebody or a group of people and then

Kevin:

Or even saying no.

Jeannene:

Or even saying no.

Kevin:

No, yeah. Yeah, and knowing

Jeannene:

yourself because if you don't know that and you give in to it and you go along and then you start to get frustrated and angry, then you set yourself up.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

So

Kevin:

the old people pleasing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So,

Jeannene:

so knowing where you're vulnerable, where it's not going to work for you and then finding a way to respond that's going to be respectful of you and the people that you're speaking to. I think it's really important.

Kevin:

Hello, we're back and we were just making a short break and we started talking about The podcast, and I realised that when I was talking that we should be recording this, so here we are recording it, so I got a bit stuck in this because I was thinking, I can only just float along with what life gives me and other people want me to do or want me to be. If I don't know myself, and I don't know about everybody else, but that was a long journey for me.

Jeannene:

That's risky too.

Kevin:

Is it?

Jeannene:

If you just float along.

Kevin:

It's horrible.

Jeannene:

Yeah, float along with what other people want of

Kevin:

you. But if you don't know anything else. I

Jeannene:

know.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah, that's why it's a whole journey. Because sometimes, some of us. Do float along not knowing what we want and the risk is that you can end up being resentful, being confused, doing what everyone else wants and not you, feel upset but not know why. I think there's risks to that.

Kevin:

You can get much worse than that. You can get far worse. I agree with all of those things, but you can get far worse than that. I think

Jeannene:

you've got a story there. End up

Kevin:

well, you know, everybody knows. I kind of feel like sometimes like a broken record. So, I think now we've, this is our 35th podcast, so everybody knows that I, uh, I'm in recovery from drug addiction. So everybody listens to our podcast on a regular basis and it seems quite a few people do. But, you know, I just, only for me. I didn't have a fucking clue who I was until I was in my mid twenties, and even then that was only the start of the journey. Because of my abuse as a child and then my drug addiction, it took me that long until I stopped taking drugs. Even have a chance to start finding out who I was, but that didn't happen for a long time, even then. Mmm. Took a long, long, long, long time. Mmm. Until I could discard all the things that I'd assumed were me, all the bits around me, like pleasing other people, all the resentments that I had, believe it or not, these were all, The things that made up me, all of the horrible things that happened to me, all the horrible things that I'd done to other people, until I could look at those, face them, and put them aside, and where possible, make things right, it was only then I started to find out who I was. It was only then that I could go, ah, I see you. Yeah,

Jeannene:

I'm hearing your journey, and I don't want to discount it in any way. However, I am thinking that there are those people who don't have issues with drug addictions, or haven't,

Kevin:

and

Jeannene:

still don't know themselves.

Kevin:

Oh, I did say that when we weren't recording, saying, so how about your neighbor? Do they know themselves? I don't have a clue about other people.

Jeannene:

Yeah,

Kevin:

so I have to, I can't assume anything actually.

Jeannene:

No, but I think often there are those who are defined by Somebody else's wants or needs or who they should be? Or what could community, community is projected onto you or society or culture?

Kevin:

It could be anything. Could be it. It doesn't need to be drug addiction. It doesn't need to be sexual abuse. It could be all sorts of things. Sure. It could be something that happened with, with a relative or something. Mm-Hmm. you know, just 1, 1, 1 example. Or it could be how you were at school. I guess it could be all sorts of things.

Jeannene:

And then there, I guess. The other part that's worth noting is, do you have the option or the safety to change? Because I just think in some people with some circumstances and in some relationships and some families, that there isn't always the option to change who I am. I guess what I would hope. Is that each of us can begin to discover parts of yourself so you can now respond to. I think one of the things I wrote down is what gives you energy.

Kevin:

Oh yeah.

Jeannene:

So starting to think about

Kevin:

lots of drugs,

Jeannene:

stop it. I just hit him. Ouch. That was a bit delayed. Maybe it didn't hurt so much. Maybe, maybe it didn't hurt so much. It

Kevin:

didn't hurt.

Jeannene:

Okay. So if I think about what gives me energy. And for those of us who are in whatever circumstances starting to find those little moments, those little things that give us energy, those people that give us energy,

Kevin:

those people that inspire

Jeannene:

and encourage or the podcast,

Kevin:

running podcast, uh, music, writing.

Jeannene:

Yep.

Kevin:

Other people, which is really tricky, because not all other people.

Jeannene:

No.

Kevin:

So, yeah. Yeah. I, I think that's maybe why I don't, and we've already talked about this in another podcast, but I don't do crowds of people very well. I have to put on my flamboyant suit, which is not necessarily me being authentic. And I can only keep it on for a little while, it gets pretty dirty and grubby quickly.

Jeannene:

No, Kevin, I reckon flamboyant self is part of you, but just possibly a smaller part.

Kevin:

Just drains my energy though. Yes,

Jeannene:

but you do have very bright socks, you know.

Kevin:

I have a bright jumper still. You

Jeannene:

have a bright jumper? I want to

Kevin:

get more bright jumpers but I can't find any. Okay, so

Jeannene:

maybe you have a small but there's a flamboyant part of you but it doesn't need a long exposure time, it just needs a short exposure time and then you're off to be by yourself. No, the jumper gets,

Kevin:

gets a long exposure time.

Jeannene:

That's not what I meant.

Kevin:

No, I know that's not true. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. So, so

Jeannene:

I guess knowing yourself is really about how much of something do I want. I know that I, I love my friends, they are really important to me and I'll spend time with them. But I really like downtime. I really like time on my own. and I get my energy from that and I like my own space and that's helpful for me and I need that and then I'm re energized to go and spend time with people. If I have too much people time then I can feel depleted and exhausted and that's not always a good thing. So, I need to measure that, and I need to make sure I have enough downtime. And now that my family is getting bigger, I've got grandkitties, which is just absolutely adorable and wonderful and exhausting and all those lovely things that go along with that. But, I want to make sure that I'm having some Janine time, however that looks, and it might be writing on my own or doing my book work or doing whatever has to happen, so that I'm energized to go and give. Because otherwise if I'm giving too much and I'm, I start to feel depleted, exhausted, or resentful, all of those things, I'm doing to myself.

Kevin:

Yeah. Sometimes, I agree with all of that, but sometimes I think, Ah, I'd really like to talk to so and so. I'll go and see them. Mm hmm. I really want to see them. So I phone them instead.

Jeannene:

Oh, okay.

Kevin:

It's a very limited contact.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

Yeah. And then other times, and I'm really going to enjoy it, you know, I went out Saturday night with a whole group of people, I think there were 15 or 20 of us in the end, and we just about took over a restaurant.

Jeannene:

Yep.

Kevin:

And I had a great night. I can't even remember what I ate, you know, but it doesn't really matter. It was just the company. It was fantastic. It sounds like you were

Jeannene:

energized by the company. Yeah. How lovely.

Kevin:

Yeah. And that's what you wrote, isn't it? Yeah. What gives you energy. Yeah.

Jeannene:

I know if I go to my pole dance class, there's a group of people there that are inspiring, wonderful. Being around them, having a go at doing tricks or dance is really inspiring, comforting, And that laughter gives me energy. And sometimes of a nighttime, it's just like, Oh, well I could sit down and watch something. And if I watch something again or eat too much or, or stay up late, I'm better off going to my class. It's getting my fix of some people, it energises me and then I come home. Really good way of, of being with yourself and looking after yourself.

Kevin:

Yeah. So, having got to that level of knowing yourself, which is what we're talking about, then I can start to pick what is it that gives me energy and how am I going to be with other people and what is it that I like to do? How do I fit in, in situations for? I've got to be, it's not the right, I've agreed to be, but I'm not necessarily a hundred percent comfortable, so how do I deal with that?

Jeannene:

Um, hearing in your story is that you make choices.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

And what you're saying is that you're responsible for you. And I like that because I just think we can feel like we haven't got a choice. I think that's garbage people. We're making choices all the time. Yeah,

Kevin:

we do.

Jeannene:

And we can choose to interact with people. And I know that if I choose to help out or choose to give, then it's a choice and I let go and really give wholeheartedly. And if I'm not going to it, If it's going to feel like too much for me, then I say no. And I want to say no caringly for that person and for me as well. And then when I say yes, I want to say yes. And you get all of me.

Kevin:

Yeah, so it's so I

Jeannene:

guess what I'm kind of saying or am saying is being true to yourself.

Kevin:

Yeah choices

Jeannene:

Yeah,

Kevin:

yeah. Yeah and accepting that.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Okay, we're done What's wrong with that We

Jeannene:

have a little space. We're done

Kevin:

Yeah, no, we're not I was joking don't turn it off yet

Jeannene:

Greg's been away for over a week and he's due back tomorrow night. And what I noticed in the first couple of days, when he was away, he hadn't been able to contact me, he was traveling over to Germany with his work. And what had happened is I noticed in myself that I hadn't had contact with him. It had been just a small contact. He sent me a message or whenever he could. And I noticed myself starting to get angry and I saw that he contacted another family member of his in relation to his mum and I've been looking after and going and visiting his mum. Who's just been in a care home. And what I noticed is I was starting to get angry. And I was getting, not angry with anyone else, but I was angry with Greg. Usually he's the privileged one. He's the one where I feel free and safe to be myself. And so he's the lucky one that gets my anger. And I just noted I was starting to get quite angry with him and when I did talk with him I was really quite cross because I really missed him and he hadn't been in contact with me. Interestingly enough I knew in my head that what was happening is That he hadn't been able to contact me. He was in a different time zone. And so every time he was available, I was not. Every time I was available, he was not. And yet my body was getting really cross because I was feeling very rejected. I was feeling quite abandoned. by him not being able to talk with me. And it's fascinating, that was happening for me and I needed to reconcile what was happening for me. None of that was his fault. Do you ever have those times, Kevin?

Kevin:

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Why haven't they contacted me? What's their problem? What's their problem?

Jeannene:

How dare they? It's been at least

Kevin:

two minutes. But you know, more commonly, it's like, uh, these days, I can always pick up the phone.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

So, but in the past

Kevin:

You couldn't. No. But you could have sent A message which, couldn't you?

Jeannene:

Oh look, later on, absolutely. And when I was with Greg, I was just saying like, I'm really upset and I'm really angry and, it wasn't your fault.

Kevin:

No. So I was able, I was

Jeannene:

able to say that to him.

Kevin:

What you told me earlier was that he wasn't available, and you're right, he wasn't available. No,

Jeannene:

not his fault at all.

Kevin:

But that's your head, your heart. Yeah. It gets another message.

Jeannene:

Yes. And so my body from my past experience, perhaps, or from wherever it comes, it doesn't matter. So I needed to reconcile and work with myself around this so that I could be with him. And, and fortunately we've had lots of conversations about this and he knows that at times when he's away a lot, then I can have this reaction and So we both know, not his fault, it's okay, it'll work, it'll reconcile and we'll talk about it and it'll be done. And at times, I've said. I'm really angry, and what I do is I miss you. So I'm able to talk about what's underneath, and that's feeling rejected, or feeling sad, or lost. Okay,

Kevin:

yep, yep.

Jeannene:

And so that's really important for me to know that. And I guess I wanted to talk about it to the listeners, because sometimes we can't stop those reactions. And as much as I wanted to, and I wanted to keep myself calm, I couldn't. But what I could do is I could be with it in a well way, and I could invite Greg to understand me. And he does, and he's, he's quite wonderful. Yeah.

Kevin:

So what I do, and I'm listening to you and thinking, ah, how do I re handle this differently? But you've got Greg, you've got a partner, you're married, and I haven't. So what I would do. is I would talk to somebody else. I'd say, hey, I'm feeling all of these things and what do you think? And they might say, they'd ask me some questions and I'd go, yeah, I'm not being reasonable. So, yeah.

Jeannene:

We had a bit of a thing,

Kevin:

you and I, recently. Well, we did and we didn't.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Where there was, uh. I wasn't

Kevin:

okay.

Jeannene:

No, you weren't

Kevin:

so good. But then I really wasn't okay.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Yeah,

Kevin:

I was feeling quite desperate. Yeah. About lots of things. And just at that point you happened to phone me.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

And you phoned me about a technical thing and we did that. And then it was time to go. And you said, are you okay? I should have just said. Yeah, look, I'm fine.

Jeannene:

No, I appreciated that you said no. Yeah, but I

Kevin:

didn't want to talk about it, which is unusual for me

Jeannene:

Yeah, and I felt at that moment you said I don't want to talk about it And I said, you sure you don't want to talk about it? And you went no, I don't want to talk about it And the interesting thing is I needed to go, but I felt quite, um, rejected, or Yeah, but

Kevin:

I told you it wasn't about you. I know. I remember that. I was really clear about that.

Jeannene:

We needed to have a conversation about it later.

Kevin:

We did.

Jeannene:

And I trusted that we'd always work it out. Yeah,

Kevin:

we did. I had

Jeannene:

ultimate trust in us.

Kevin:

Yeah. And I still haven't told you the whole story. But it wasn't, maybe

Jeannene:

not on the podcast. It wasn't

Kevin:

about you. No, we're not going to do it on you. It wasn't about you.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

So yeah.

Jeannene:

And it was, it was okay for me.

Kevin:

Sometimes it's not, it's just not about you.

Jeannene:

No.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

It was really important for me to talk about it because I needed to check out because it felt like it was about me. I felt like you were angry with me. to be

Kevin:

at that point in time, and I always pick up the phone, unless it's an unknown number. And here's a tip, listeners, unknown numbers, probably a scammer, don't answer. Okay.

Jeannene:

Good on you, Kevin. I'll let

Kevin:

it go through, and if I don't get a voice message, then it's a scammer.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Okay. But I guess I wanted to say is that what was left over for me is I felt like you were angry with me and I didn't do anything wrong. And so I backed myself in it. But what was left over, we needed to talk about so that I didn't stay in that space and it was really clear between you and I.

Kevin:

And I did a number of things and I ended up that I actually needed some space. That's what I needed. That's

Jeannene:

knowing yourself.

Kevin:

Well, it took some getting there, but yeah,

Jeannene:

yeah, yeah. And I think what I've learned is,

Kevin:

but I need some space from everybody.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Okay.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

But I think what I take away from that is that I'm now knowing a little bit more about you and also I've learned a little bit about myself that it's okay for me to, to feel that way. and we'll resolve it.

Kevin:

Yeah, we did.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah,

Jeannene:

we did. Cool. It's a good, it's a good thing.

Kevin:

Okay.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Well, I can just stop. Yeah.

Jeannene:

So there were two things that happened the other day. One was Greg and I were learning a piece of music and I'm the singing component of the band and Greg is the lead guitar. He's learning lead guitar. And there's this new song that we're learning, and I started singing along with the song, and I know it roughly, I can't remember what the song is at the moment, anyway, so I was singing along with it, and Greg kept saying to me, Just listen to it. Stop and listen to it. And it was one of those background songs that you hear often and we've known for years. But singing it is very different. Or playing along with it is very different because there's so much more specific things to learn. And what I said to Greg was, I need to sing along with it because the way I learn is I make mistakes. So I'd be singing along and it goes up and I would go straight and I go, Oh, okay, that's not how it goes. And so what I realized is I was able to say to him, no, I need to sing along to it because that's the way I make mistakes and that's the way I learn and that's the way I sing best is I can work through it and then I can learn the song that way.

Kevin:

And

Jeannene:

he said, Oh. Well, maybe I need to listen to it. The way I learn is I listen to it over and over, and then I can go and play it. And I went, Oh, okay. So then I said to him, So in order for you to learn the song, I'm going to need to be quiet. And he went, Yeah. So, That's one way of dealing with it or I could go and learn it separately where I go into another room and I, I sing along with it and muck it up until I learn the song and he listens to it until he learns it that way and then he can play along with it.

Kevin:

That's exactly what we've been talking about.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

It's knowing yourself around the different ways of, you know, How you learn, how you process, what's important to you, and what you need to do. And what I loved about the, that small story is that nobody was wrong.

Kevin:

No.

Jeannene:

And I just know that this is the way that I learn best. That's the way that he learns best, and nobody's wrong, but if we're going to do something in the same space, we might need to do it differently, so that we needed to negotiate.

Kevin:

Yeah. Yeah. It's good.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

That also happens with Bianca and I are doing, uh, a doubles pole routine, and we choreograph particular moves. Dance to music as well as doing some tricks on the pole and we process very differently as well. So Sometimes I'll need to slowly walk through something Sometimes Bianca hears the music and he needs to hear the beat to know when to do it Whereas I need to do that later.

Kevin:

Okay, so

Jeannene:

we just adjust to each other and we laugh at each other and and And then there'll be times when she'll say to me You Stop. Just let me hear the music and I'll go. Okay. So you might need to do that first

Kevin:

Mm hmm,

Jeannene:

and then I come in and I'll do my thing or we do it separately when we can There's probably two other components around that is knowing yourself But also knowing the other person or giving the other person permission to process their way

Kevin:

Yeah I get it.

Jeannene:

I think those things are really important.

Kevin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's about knowing who you are, knowing how you learn.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah. Allowing other people space to learn the way they learn.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

And not assuming that they're going to learn the same way that you do, or they need the same things that you do.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Like some people, like we've talked about before, introverts and extroverts, some people really need a lot of space to, to talk. through something to work it out. Other people just need to reflect on their own and then come up with a plan. So, and both of those are okay.

Kevin:

Except me.

Jeannene:

I

Kevin:

already know everything.

Jeannene:

Oh, okay. So are you a know it all, Kevin?

Kevin:

Oh, I just know everything.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

No, I don't.

Jeannene:

What have you learned about yourself lately around the ways you process? I'm talking processing, but maybe your needs or your wants or what kind of space you like. I don't know.

Kevin:

What I've discovered recently is that my life is like taking photographs. So what I see through the lens of my, not my eyes, my perception, my, my attitude. Can be as different as cleaning the lens on a camera or pointing it somewhere else. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Oh, now I see what you're saying. Yes. Yeah. So we're in a room here. It's my lounge room where we're sitting running the podcast and depending on my mood.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

I could see this room. There's a few dog toys around. We've got our eldest daughter's dog that's here with us and

Kevin:

Russell.

Jeannene:

Russell. And he's a Groodle, which is a lot of fun and intensity with our pooh. He sure

Kevin:

is intense.

Jeannene:

And I've got some games out because the grandkitties were around. And I could see this place as a mess.

Kevin:

It's not though. So it depends, doesn't it? That's

Jeannene:

right.

Kevin:

So, yeah. Yeah.

Jeannene:

And I can feel quite disorganized because it's a mess and I haven't gotten to put those things away. Or I can go, ooh, this place has been very loved and

Kevin:

lived

Jeannene:

in. Yeah,

Kevin:

yeah, there you

Jeannene:

go. So Yeah. And we've enjoyed family in it, and enjoyed it to its full. That might be one perspective, it just depends how you want to look at things. And I think that absolutely affects your body as well.

Kevin:

Yeah, it certainly does. And now I can change things, and the way to change things is to change just what I said really, the way that I perceive everything. That's the first step.

Jeannene:

And probably noticing. Maybe that's a step before the first step, if you like, is just really noticing how you're perceiving things.

Kevin:

Yeah, sure, an awareness of it. You were talking

Jeannene:

about your unit at the moment, that you could take a perception of it like you were feeling more trapped.

Kevin:

Yeah, I mean you could, I had at times after moving there that, you know, it's so small, some of the residents here, like, you know, there must be 70 people in that block. You know, maybe five of them are not so good and all that kind of stuff. But really I'm on the top floor. I've got incredible views. It's very peaceful. Most people are really friendly and pleasant and helpful and yeah, I can afford

Jeannene:

it.

Kevin:

It's affordable.

Jeannene:

So interesting how perspective can change so much.

Kevin:

So really it wouldn't matter where I was living. If I was looking through, um, a discolored lens at it, it would be haunting. I had, our family house in, in Northcote was incredible and we'd spent an awful lot of money on making it even more incredible and yet. I was always in my head complaining about it, and it was always perfect, you know, we both worked hard and Chloe was very young, we had a housekeeper who came in daily and she cooked for us and all sorts of other things, or what's that after Julian and I split up, doesn't matter. It was always perfect. Perfect. And I didn't feel like,

Jeannene:

yeah, no,

Kevin:

I didn't see it like that. What I saw was, I don't know what I saw. It's hard to go back that far. But I saw something that made me feel disgruntled. Yeah. But if I'd have known then, what was it you said? If I had been aware of what I was doing, I could have then changed how I perceived it.

Jeannene:

I think knowing yourself is really important. What's actually happening with you and then working out what needs to be different here. So it's very much the inward journey. Did you nearly spit your coffee? I

Kevin:

did because I was thinking, yeah, what was, what was, what needed to be different was me not complaining all the time. I couldn't complain about the house or the state of the house or, so I'd complain about the next door neighbor and the next door neighbor's dog. At the time we were paying a mortgage and those rates kept going up. Ours went up to just under 20%.

Jeannene:

Yep.

Kevin:

And you know, we were living in a court, maybe, I think there were 16 houses and more than half of them. Sold because they couldn't afford to sell. I'd complain about the bank and you know, whatever, but really, you know, we could afford it. So it was okay. We have choices. We could have sold it like the other people did.

Jeannene:

There was a time when. Our middle daughter was living at home with her partner, and now husband, and their chefs. And they would spend some time making us dinner, and they were the type of chefs that would cook at work, but also come and cook at home, and I loved them cooking at home. But they're used to industrial kitchens, and so there would be lots of pots, and there would be lots of mess, and

Kevin:

some

Jeannene:

days it would take me some days to clean up, but I was so grateful that they were there and cooking, and One of the things I did for myself, because I don't like mess. I like things neat. I'm one of those people, people.

Kevin:

I never noticed that.

Jeannene:

Oh my goodness. Anyway, so I do like things neat. And what I was able to realize and how I was able to be with myself was to tell myself that I'm supporting them in their future work. That by allowing them or letting them cook the way they wanted and us really enjoying the meal, then by me cleaning up, I supported them and I looked after them. And that was a way that I settled myself around what would normally be not a messy kitchen. So, and that was really important for me. That meant that I could support them and then I could be. The, the mother or the parent that I wanted to be, and that's really important to me. Really looking after that inward journey.

Kevin:

Yeah. That awareness of who we are and how we operate, yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

And how we can change it. Cool. Yeah.

Jeannene:

I think knowing your strength is really important. I don't know why.

Kevin:

This bit's your idea. I know! Okay.

Jeannene:

I was just gonna, I was just gonna come in with this brilliant insight. Well, I don't know

Kevin:

your strengths.

Jeannene:

Let's think about that if we're in a group of people.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

I think I could sit back and not play a part of it or I can step up and know that I'm actually good with people and I can invite others to speak and I can speak up and that can be very inclusive and brings other people into the group and that sort of thing. Sorry. If I didn't know that about myself, I could just sit there and be in touch with the introverted part of myself, but not the other part. And I think there's, there's not a danger to that. It's just, if I want to live life to the full, I want to experience and give other people the experience of my strengths as well. We all have strengths, you know, out there.

Kevin:

Yeah. And, and, and, and sometimes fear gets in the way.

Jeannene:

Yeah. For me.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yep.

Kevin:

So I was listening to you, and I was also thinking you do counselling, you do all sorts of athletic things. And I like what you said just then, which is like, be in it, basically. Yeah. Be in life. But my fear can stop me from being in it.

Jeannene:

Tell me more.

Kevin:

So, writing. I, um, I've had loads of books published, but they've all been A long time ago, and they've all been about designing software in particular, designing games because that's what I did for the first 10 years of my career as a software developer. But you know, now I'm writing a book with you and I've written a short story, which I turned into a memoir and I intend to write more and I'm writing another book as well. So, if I gave way to some of my fears, I'd just tell myself a whole different story than I do.

Jeannene:

So are you talking about a fear of rejection? What kind of fear are you talking about?

Kevin:

Not good enough. So what's that? That's my self esteem, isn't it? Or lack of it.

Jeannene:

Fear of inadequacy or unworthiness? Like

Kevin:

I can't do this. What am I think I'm doing? I can't do this. Nobody will read it. I'm not a writer. Those sorts of things. And I read about other writers, some well known, some not so well known, and they all go through that too. I think

Jeannene:

that still comes under the fear of rejection.

Kevin:

Does it?

Jeannene:

Yeah, I'm not sure.

Kevin:

Okay.

Jeannene:

Because it's like I'm not good enough, so Whatever it is,

Kevin:

it can be a problem. It can be a big problem, a big blocker.

Jeannene:

Yeah, and

Kevin:

I use it to procrastinate as well sometimes.

Jeannene:

So, knowing yourself will be That's true. Loud

Kevin:

music is good.

Jeannene:

You can go back to the music we've already talked

Kevin:

about. Loud music is good. It breaks through all that crap. Can you

Jeannene:

not? Can you not? You've already said it.

Kevin:

I don't know. I like that.

Jeannene:

I think knowing yourself is really being in touch with what's you're thinking. So like you started to say the things you're thinking and that's that critical part of you. It could be really quite cruel. And knowing that you're all listening to that thinking is, you want to be in touch with it. And, and cause then once you're in touch with it, then you can challenge it. If you're not in touch with it, you can't challenge it. So you really need to know about what you're thinking. And is that thinking stopping you? And so that's around knowing yourself as well. And first it's about becoming aware of those parts of yourself that are more hidden to anybody else, because. Nobody knows you like you do.

Kevin:

So lots of facets.

Jeannene:

Lots of facets.

Kevin:

Lots of facets. My friend Neil used to say, we're like diamonds, Kieran. We've got so many facets. Oh,

Jeannene:

I like that.

Kevin:

I thought I understood what he was talking about, but I didn't, not entirely. Yeah. I

Jeannene:

also think that knowing yourself is a very private thing because even those close to you may not know all the facets. the aspects of yourself. And so they can understand how you respond. They can assume that your thinking is a particular way. They can experience you like something, whether it's distant or close or flamboyant or whatever. And they could make all those assumptions or those, they can say, these are how I experienced you, which may be true, but they don't know what's going underneath always.

Kevin:

Well, it gets into some. Strange area there because I was just thinking, even if you tried to tell them everything, I don't think somebody else can actually really know you as well as you do because they get in the way.

Jeannene:

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Even as a counselor, I've done a lot of work around it, really soothing and calming myself so that I can hear the other person's story. And I think and experience myself as a very good listener.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

But even I can get in the way of somebody else telling the story. But what I would say is everybody's their own expert on themselves and you're the only one who can change anything internally.

Kevin:

Why wouldn't you just say to them, come on, speak up.

Jeannene:

Yeah, that's going to help. So I've got a friend who would say to me, I'll fix your client. Yeah,

Kevin:

I know that friend.

Jeannene:

I'll fix your client. I'll tell him. How's it make you feel?

Kevin:

Just get on with it. Just get on with it. Why don't you just get on with it.

Jeannene:

Yep. Go out there.

Kevin:

It always reminds me of being a very young teenager when people started to say, you're a long haired lout. Get your hair cut. Why don't you get an air cut and get a job? And we'd all say, why don't you shut up, you silly old bugger.

Jeannene:

Consequently, my friend, I haven't brought into the counseling room because I don't want her advice to my clients. I don't think that's been helpful. Don't think. That she has all the goods to be able to share with people. Don't think she's empathic. Thanks very much

Kevin:

friend. Some people are not meant to be counsellors.

Jeannene:

No, that's right. I'm not meant in other roles. We all have our things. Don't we Kevin? So, yeah. And I can also say to some people, my style is not going to fit for them. Thank you. And I want to respect that. I think that's really important. So that's still about knowing yourself. And I want to give people, it's really important for me to give people permission to go, Hey, when people come and see me for the first time, I'll just say, this is your opportunity to check out whether I'm going to be a good fit for you. I may not be. And so this is your opportunity, because I think that's part of giving people permission around knowing themselves and working with who they want. They may want a female or male or other gender. That's all important to them. Fantastic. And they might want a person who works a particular way. Fantastic. And I think about that in terms of our friendships and we can't always change our family, but we can learn what's the best ways to be with them, how much time we want to spend, all those things we can empower ourselves to make choices around.

Kevin:

So

Jeannene:

where we can.

Kevin:

We've just wasted a whole podcast, because we can't possibly know ourselves. Ha ha ha ha. Good one, Kev.

Jeannene:

Good one.

Kevin:

Brilliant. Brilliant insight. Or outside. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Outside. We gotta go inside.

Kevin:

Okay.

Jeannene:

Have we been helpful at all?

Kevin:

I have. Have

Jeannene:

you?

Kevin:

Yes, we have been helpful. Before we started I was, We were looking for what we're going to talk about today and we had some ideas, but I looked through everything that we've currently done and I was completely blown away. I was, I'd forgotten how much we'd already covered. Yeah. So yeah.

Jeannene:

But like anything, we've just touched on the surface. Only

Kevin:

just touched.

Jeannene:

Of some topics. And like I said, some of them are interwoven. Uh, knowing yourself might be something like listening to yourself, uh, and listening to your surroundings. And all of these topics are interwoven. And I think, isn't that wonderful? That's all the parts of ourselves and, um, the most important thing to me is having these conversations because this is the start of a conversation. And we want to have more.

Kevin:

And we're going to have guests.

Jeannene:

And we're going to have guests.

Kevin:

Yeah. Not professionals.

Jeannene:

Well, they, they may or may not be professionals. Oh,

Kevin:

sorry. Yeah. But what

Jeannene:

we want is we want people to come with. something they're experiencing in the moment, a problem, perhaps, or a place where they're, a question, or a place where they're stuck, and we're going to discuss it and that will form part of another conversation that we can have.

Kevin:

So, you can contact us and let us know what your questions are.

Jeannene:

No, we want to talk to them.

Kevin:

Oh, okay. Yeah, no, cross that out. You have to talk to us. We have to talk to you.

Jeannene:

I've got to talk to Kevin.

Kevin:

I think so.

Jeannene:

Like anything, I feel like I'm clear until we start to discuss it and then Kevin will understand something a bit differently and then I'll come in and I'll go, no, it wasn't what I thought. And you'll go, no, that wasn't what I thought. And so what's wonderful is we can only know ourselves and as we start to discuss it, we can learn some more about the other person and eventually come to some sort of compromise or. Way forward.

Kevin:

Yep.

Jeannene:

I think we'll leave it there.

Kevin:

We're done Stick a fork in me.

Jeannene:

I was gonna say something else

Kevin:

Okay, that was good, thank you.

Jeannene:

Thanks for listening people.

Kevin:

Thanks.

Jeannene:

I hope you've taken away us something or Have an opportunity to have a greater conversation with somebody else.

Kevin:

Yeah, and you can come and be a guest.

Jeannene:

Yeah, it was fun chatting to you.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

And to you Kevin.

Kevin:

And to you Janine.

Jeannene:

Bye for now. Bye

People on this episode

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Jeannene

Host
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Kevin

Host