Inward Journey

Poverty and Wealth - Episode 28

• Kevin Bergin • Season 1 • Episode 28

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Jeannene:

Hello and welcome to the podcast. You're here with Janine and I'm here also with Kevin. And today we're recording this episode on Wonduri land.

Kevin:

Yes. Well,

Jeannene:

Yeah. Around this topic of wealth and poverty and we've just started.

Kevin:

And if you feel like giving, I'll give you my bank account details.

Jeannene:

You had to end that way, didn't

Kevin:

you? I did, didn't I? Yeah,

Jeannene:

welcome to our topic today, which is going to be poverty and wealth. Yeah. We're not really sure how we're going to tackle this one, but we thought it feels relevant. Tell us what's been happening with you lately, Kevin.

Kevin:

I'm fasting. Intermittent fasting. That's right. You know, I never ever, not that I can remember, in my whole life ever put any weight on. And whether I was exercising or not, part of my life, that's not surprising. Taking drugs, you tend not to put weight on. Not a good idea though, everybody out there. So yeah, but you know, that's only 23 years out of 72. Yeah, so I, for whatever reason, And put on 7 or 8 kilos. And it doesn't sound like a lot, does it? But I've got really small frames.

Jeannene:

You noticed it.

Kevin:

It's really uncomfortable. And I'm starting to get a potbelly. Yeah. Yeah. I thought of something that I probably shouldn't say. So, I won't say it. Yeah, I definitely won't say it. So I started doing more exercise and, that's having an impact, but it's not having a complete impact, and I didn't look at my eating habits, I just had an idea that, maybe I should go on a diet, and I looked at all the diets, and I went, no, no, I'm not going to do that, it won't happen, and, a friend of mine, He's doing intermittent fasting and I talked to him about it and he said, Why would you be doing that? It's

Jeannene:

got lots of health benefits. Yeah, he told me about that. He

Kevin:

said I needed to lose a bit of weight. But there was all these other

Jeannene:

reasons.

Kevin:

So, um, Almost at the end of the first week,

Jeannene:

And it's going well?

Kevin:

It's interesting. I think I've lost a bit of weight. I haven't jumped on the scales yet, but not much, but looking it up, it can be as little as, just a, or 500 grams a week. and you need to be active too, so I'm certainly active enough, but there are some other things. I feel better. I sleep better. yeah. Only one side effect so far, which is that My smell has changed We didn't talk about it. Yeah, we it's like I was walking around the house the other day What's that smell? You know, it's not like a horrid smell, it's like a chemical smell, almost like, it's an acetone, and I'm walking around going, and eventually I went, oh, that's me. I wonder what I've done, so I looked it up and said, yeah, you might sweat more, and you might have this other thing which has got to do with keratone or something. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's like. The body's working out what to do with the fact that I'm not eating as much. Okay.

Jeannene:

There's lots of changes in the body, isn't it? Yeah. I know when Greg and I traveled, we did the intermittent, fasting and it was really good for us. And we did it for health reasons. And I think with making any change, you want to really create some habits and really you want to do it slowly. Slow change is really good. And it sounds like you're doing it for all health reasons and, you know. There are some surprises too. Yeah.

Kevin:

Like, I thought I didn't have eating issues at all. Mm hmm. And that, I'd eat when I was, in quotes, hungry. And, I've obviously forgotten what hungry means because, I realized that I was, basically eating every time I went past the kitchen almost.

Jeannene:

Yeah. So, what you're telling me is it's changed your relationship to food. Yeah. I see everything in terms of relationship and I think that that's a really good thing to do because again, if you Thinking about the way, or the relationship that you have with anything, and food being a really big part of it. If you're changing that relationship, then it's a good thing. And I mean it, ah, what am I saying? I've got no idea what I'm saying.

Kevin:

No, I, I did, I thought that was really good. Yeah, so it is about relationships. And it actually ties in with, with, with, I'm going to talk about it later on, but anyway, I'm, I'm in the latter stages of deciding whether or not to move. I think I've decided I'm going to move, so, well, that's always a big thing, isn't it? That's right, yes. But if it's moving to somewhere, I'm as sure as I can be, we'll be safe. And which is really important for me. I know it is for you because we discussed that. Yeah. And it's clearly comfortable. It's small, but that's okay.

Jeannene:

Yeah.

Kevin:

It's going to suit me.

Jeannene:

It's a big thing, isn't it?

Kevin:

Yeah, it is. Huge. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Hmm. And

Kevin:

you?

Jeannene:

Well, we've had a lot of construction happening around the house at the moment. So we're in the throes of changing from, gas to electricity with our air cooling and heating and the hope and plan is to go to solar, which we'll, be doing soon. So it has meant there's been a lot of, banging and construction work and, contractors moving it out and around the place. And so that's disturbed the normal way of me carrying on with life and my counseling practice and all of those sorts of things. So at times I felt a bit discombobulated. Yeah. Love that word. But it feels like I can hang in there because I know it's all going to settle. And so, yeah, and I'm grateful that we're able to do that.

Kevin:

Yeah. So. Talking about the food thing, which I was and you were, talking about your experience with Greg. I don't know what your experience was growing up, but mine was that, we didn't really have enough to eat, and going to school, it's a Catholic school, but a state sponsored Catholic school, so there would be free meals. No, they weren't free, but they were very, like, two and six a week or something, which is, I don't know what that is, maybe five cents, so that would be where we got a lot of our nourishment from, but there certainly wasn't, food, there wasn't a lot of choice in food and there was often not enough, there was six of us, so there often wasn't enough, and the meat was once a week, and I was telling somebody, we didn't have fridges or phones or, did we have a washing machine? Not when I was really young.

Jeannene:

So

Kevin:

you grew

Jeannene:

up in poverty? Poverty?-Poverty. Yeah.

Kevin:

So the way that my parents kept the meat was in the pantry, which was almost walking, it was like a little closet. There was a wire cage up the top to stop the flies and things, and the meat would be put in there, wrapped up, obviously. But it would only last for a day, maybe two days before you had to throw it away because no fridges. And the phone was down the bottom of the road and shared by everybody in the street. It was public phone books. Yeah. How different is that? I was telling somebody and they said, yeah, and now we've all got a phone in our pockets.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Man. Yeah, we didn't have a phone until I was around 13 or 14. So again, certainly different from your story, but, the area in which I grew up in, we had less financial means than, most of those people around us. There was five in our family We all pretty much wore secondhand clothing a lot of the time until I was older. We did have enough to eat on the table. So we were more fortunate than you. But it's interesting because, again, you don't know anything different from your circumstances than you don't know whether you're, In poor circumstances or in wealth. You just know that this is your circumstances when you're a kid Until you're older and then I think you start to go. Oh, I didn't have that or I had more than that

Kevin:

yeah

Jeannene:

Yeah, I don't think you know No, it's only looking back.

Kevin:

There was a moment when I realised that only a few streets over, people live differently We used to laugh about it, but it's not really funny, it's like You My father would say, you need to eat that Kevin before your brothers steal it. And it was true. there would be a fighting over food, even at the table. It wasn't avert because my father was there. And at that point in his life, he was really quite strict with us.

Jeannene:

So your circumstances have changed quite a bit. Would you say you're wealthy now?

Kevin:

Right now, I'm struggling financially, but I'm certainly not living in poverty. Yeah. Yeah, I manage quite well and have, as a young man up until middle age, been incredibly rich. I remember the day my accountant that's running a company, I remember the day he came to see me and he was kind of telling me off. You know, you don't take any wages. You, I can see from the books that you don't, and your secretary tells me that you don't, you know, and you're driving that battered old car around, and how about your clothes? And I go, John, that's enough but he was right. And that's right. That was the day he said, you know what, you are a millionaire, possibly a multimillionaire, and you're living on Kapa. And I did. I lived in a beautiful house, but I was never there. Mm-Hmm. I could have had a beautiful car, but, and I could have done all sorts of things like gone on nice holidays and I didn't

Jeannene:

Mm-Hmm.

Kevin:

I lived just like I had when I was a kid.

Jeannene:

Mm-Hmm. And then things have changed now your circumstances, but you've got enough clothes and enough food. Yeah.

Kevin:

I've got a car that I,

Jeannene:

I need, I guess what. What you would say, or I would say, is that you don't have disposable income to do extras. At the moment. Yeah. At the moment, yeah.

Kevin:

But yeah, even that's good. Yeah. I know that'll change. I'm just being fussy about what I do. Yeah, and taking my time, which sometimes I get frustrated with myself and say no just take this and then Internal argument goes no. I know where that leads me. I don't want to go there. So yeah, so it's choice.

Jeannene:

I remember when I started going out with Greg And then after we were married, we had a little black and white TV and I wasn't wanting to give it up to go to a color TV because it was my poverty symbol. And I felt embarrassed to have a color TV or to be able to buy one, which eventually we did do. And then, Over time, Greg landed himself a job with Ansett, and we all know how that ended. Yeah, we certainly do. Um, with Ansett falling over and, the pilot's dispute, which, is another big story that we all have to tell. I remember that one. Yeah, how that impacted myself and Greg at the time. But the main part I wanted to bring up around to the story is over the time with Greg being a pilot, we had income that I was not used to, certainly that he was not used to. And I remember telling everybody that I was rich., and I remember, inviting, a lovely friend over, who was, from Asia. And, I was talking about that. I was very rich and please come over there was a group of friends with us and my, lovely friend, came over and when she was leaving at a later stage, she said to me, Oh, Janine, rich in China is where they have chandeliers and they have big houses. And she started to describe some of the things. And I went, Oh, so I had no idea because we had our little three bedroom house in Heathcote in Sydney. Yep. And I had no idea that it was small. I had a backyard and it was ours and we had the mortgage and I was very excited. And if we went out to dinner, I offered to pay for everyone because I understood that I was rich. So it, was from where I had come. It was quite a difference and I had disposable income and I didn't, know.

Kevin:

But you were rich.

Jeannene:

Absolutely. It just depends. So, but when, but saying it to somebody else, they had a very different experience. Right.

Kevin:

So really what your friend was saying is, I don't think you're rich, but the life you were living and what it was telling you is that you were rich, so you were rich.

Jeannene:

That's right.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

And then it brings me to start to think about wealth and I think about, well, often that's an inner experience for me. Um, I don't want to, say this in a way that dismisses anyone's struggle with finances or money. Yell

Kevin:

out,

Jeannene:

I might deserve that, I don't cause I don't want to say that. But what I want to, say is that. often there can be so much focus on what's outside and goods and, I'm really struggling with my words here.

Kevin:

So wealth is not, is the law. Prosperity is a more well rounded thing. Really focused on what goes on in our inner world.

Jeannene:

I, think often we can get caught In whinging around what isn't and what we should have and what we want to have and this is not enough.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

And then I think you can forget about. Takes us

Kevin:

away.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Forget about what you're sharing and forget about your inner wealth.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Ah.

Kevin:

So.

Jeannene:

Yeah. And safety. Safety. Yeah. I think it really. Yeah. It's really important. Offers, a wealth to me. And

Kevin:

And it's important for me to have somewhere safe to live. Also that it's comfortable, that I've got clothes to wear. Um, food to eat and a car to drive and, you know, computer to use and not much more really. So when I was in that position of having access to all this money and then dealing with people, my clients who, a lot of them really well off running their own businesses. So they were my peers. And yet they were living a completely different life to me, but I did know that I wasn't alone, that there were people who, owned bigger companies than me and founded huge companies and were also, you know, walking around in jeans that needed to be thrown away, and their cars were rubbish just like mine, so. I don't know. It seems to me that it's because we came from poverty. We came from real poverty.

Jeannene:

I, think that intertwines with trauma.

Kevin:

Yeah. And that's where

Jeannene:

I was going.

Kevin:

Like, that message of the trauma, that message of there's never enough. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Do you think that that includes that feels like there's never enough love? There's never enough hope. There's never enough.

Kevin:

That's right.

Jeannene:

Any number of things really? Well because

Kevin:

like, yeah, again for me I guess, because they go together. Yeah. So walking down the street freezing cold with water coming into your shoes. Is directly connected to not feeling safe, not being loved, and all of those other things, all of those emotional things, yeah, like, that's where all of those messages come from, they're really strong, I can't imagine letting my daughter, and now my grandchildren, well, my daughter deals with that, so go to my daughter, walk down the road. Being hungry and not having clothes on that would look after, you know, and feeling unloved.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Yeah, that is a, a very tragic, consideration, as a parent, isn't it? Yeah. But

Kevin:

it doesn't just affect you physically, it affects you, Emotionally as

Jeannene:

well. Emotionally as well. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And I was

Kevin:

already living in trauma, so that just adds to

Jeannene:

it. We're very fortunate here in Australia. I think there are less fortunate places overseas, so I want to be really grateful for the lands in which we live. I'm not sure what else to say about this.

Kevin:

I still go to, I hear you say that and I Just like when I was working 16 or 18 hours a day. I hear you say that, and there's a little voice in my head which goes, Yeah, but I want more. More, more, more. And, Unfortunately, it's a part of me which I just go, Yeah, no. Focus on where we are right now.

Jeannene:

I've been having these conversations with Greg more recently is when I was young, I wasn't touched or held very much at all. I certainly wasn't hugged by my family. And so this weird thing happened when I was. Around 10, I decided that I would hug my mum. it was this funny thing because when I would touch her,, she would scream. So, not used to being touched herself, I expect. So what I had done at the age of 10, what I would slowly do is over time is I would put my hand on her as I was walking past and she'd scream, or, certainly jolt and look at me weird. But what I do is I just keep doing it. It must have been this annoying kid, but I had this goal in my mind. Anyway, what I did was. When she would cross the road with me, she wouldn't want me to be run over. So she would hold my arm, grab hold of my arm, and so at when we'd get across to the other side of the road, I'd hang on a bit longer and a bit more tighter, and then she'd have to almost shake me off. Um, would she do that? Yes, she would do that. Okay. Yeah. and then what would happen is over time I would get to touch her. And eventually I got to hug her. And this little 10 year old had decided that's all. I don't know how I worked that out. But over time I would hug her. Amazing. And so then I end up hugging, and then I'd hug some of the other family members. It was like, Hugging ice blocks.

Kevin:

But you did it.

Jeannene:

But I did it. And, now mum likes the hug. She can still grunt in quite a fun loving way. Well I was hugging her. And it's a better thing to do. But I think about that in terms of, I think, you know, If I was to say a statement about myself, I think I was impoverished around yeah. Touch.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

Hmm.

Kevin:

I was going to say, when you first started talking about that, I was related to that and I was thinking, yeah, I never got hugged. I certainly never got hugged. I never got touched. Then she went on and I thought, hang on. My eldest brother, Brian, He was quite often used to take me to the shops, and my mum and dad would ask him, he'd be going out, particularly at the weekends somewhere, and take Kevin with you, and he'd always hold my hand. And so would my other brother. And I'd hold my sister's hand when I was walking down the road with her, but, not my parents, and I can remember, my mum would, um, if I got too close to her, she'd push me out of the kitchen, because she was always in the kitchen, complaining about being in the kitchen, but in the kitchen, and she would push me out, yeah. It's like, what was the word you used? Being impoverished. Impoverished. And being impoverished encompassing being emotionally impoverished too can become, we've talked about this before, can become so familiar that it becomes the go to, the default.

Jeannene:

The normal.

Kevin:

So having access to all that money and running a business which has become so large. Wasn't familiar, so I lived in the familiar way, while I still went out and made all this money. Weird!

Jeannene:

Well, that's why Because I didn't

Kevin:

deal with any of the internal stuff, it was all external. So, I never got to deal with Until much, much later, it took a relapse of using drugs, which, it was alcohol, and getting over that, and then starting to look at You know, what the issues were, why I was behaving, before I was able to stop living like that.

Jeannene:

That's why the internal journey is so important, also, I don't think you can change patterns if you're not changing what's happening internally. Because sometimes just changing the external doesn't change your relationship to anything else.

Kevin:

Including ourselves. Yep, absolutely. It can change a bit, in fact. Um, that means a more destructive behavior in the end. Yeah.

Jeannene:

I think you can so called believe in yourself and put on better clothes. But if that doesn't happen internally, then the risk is what you're doing is just putting on clothes and you don't fully believe in yourself rather than clothing yourself with dignity, which is. Again, for me is, a really important thing when I think about that. Yeah. So I guess what we're talking about is inner wealth.

Kevin:

All of this is about inner wealth. I've got some other stories that come to mind. So I was designing games living in London. I remember my brother was with me one day, I had for once bought a decent car, I bought a Jag. It was a second hand one, but it was immaculate. It was a dark blue Jag, and we got in it, we're driving down the road, and we drove out onto the motorway, or the freeway, whatever you want to call it, and we're driving along, and, he said, so you're rich? And I said, what? He said, this car! And I said, yeah, it's nice and comfortable. He said, yeah, you know, it's like a, it's a poor man's Rolls Royce. And I, I don't know what I did. I probably changed the subject and then flashback many, many years later. And he's came to Australia and we're standing on a yet to be finished house. And my 40 acres out in the country and he's got his camera out. He's standing on the balcony next to me. And he's got his camera out and he's taking photographs. So you're a landowner now, and I couldn't handle that. I just, no, not really. Everybody does this in Australia. That sort of thing. I just

Jeannene:

Dismissed it? Dismissed it and

Kevin:

it made no difference to my inner life at all. But I guess I wanted it to.

Jeannene:

And then you went back to using drugs after that? I did. Yeah.

Kevin:

After that.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Because your inner life was still the same?

Kevin:

Yeah. Or around that time I was already using drugs. Using drugs, using alcohol. Which people is a drug? And if it wasn't legal now, as they wanted to introduce it, it would not be made legal. It would be a class A drug. And

Jeannene:

sometimes, I've been advised, that it's one of the more dangerous drugs to use as well. It's just that it's the more acceptable one.

Kevin:

Yeah, yeah, but then most people, they're just going to have a beer or a glass of wine. It's only people like me that can do it. Can't stop. Have no stop button. My way of stopping is not to do it. Yeah,

Jeannene:

yeah, making the safe choice. Yeah, I don't need,

Kevin:

I don't need those things. And

Jeannene:

then

Kevin:

I discover, all sorts of things about me. So I

Jeannene:

got, I gotta stop for a minute.

Kevin:

Yeah, I know. Do we stop?

Jeannene:

From my earlier story, I talked about growing up and being impoverished in terms of touch, and what happened for me is as we were talking about it, and as you were talking, you could see that I wasn't My usual self. You noticed some changes, didn't you? Well.

Kevin:

And you were doing this. People can't see. You were fiddling with it. Janine was wiggling her fingers about. Yeah. So

Jeannene:

you could see that I was pondering differently. Yeah. Yeah. I have many of those stories. But I guess this is the first time telling more people. Yeah. Yeah. Around those types of stories for me and, experiences for me growing up. And what I noticed is my body started to get a bit panicked, panicked or not even panicked was more, I visited those spaces or that experience of trauma. And I could feel myself less so being traumatized so much as just wanting to cry. And then I'm reminded that whenever someone tells their story, or whenever I'm telling a story, if it's a traumatic experience, if it's a difficult experience, then part of your body goes there. And so I'm aware that we're telling these stories, Kevin, and sometimes we'll bounce and that's great. Yep. We're telling the story in a light and a fun and engaging way, which is great. And we can only do that often because we've worked through a lot of our trauma. But I'm still reminded. That there's parts of our story that are really quite traumatic.

music:

Yep.

Jeannene:

So whether it was the thoughts or the experience of me not being touched or that time when I was that 10 year old girl and some of the other experiences I had at that time, there's something that took my body back there. Yep. That was quite painful. So I just want to say that, and I just want to honor that even though we're telling these stories on a podcast, that sometimes we're going to have those experiences, Kevin.

Kevin:

Yeah. And for me, and I know for you, we've learned to deal with those, but somehow it still takes us back there. Yeah. I was also still, I was aware. Probably after the fact that I'm still that little boy sitting at the table. That's where I got my habit of devouring my, vacuuming my food. Because my two older brothers were gonna pounce on it if I didn't. So it took me right back there. And then I, but I love it also because I find out more about me. I've just, I don't doubt that's why I used to, well, sometimes still do, vacuum my food. Yeah. And I go out with these guys on a Saturday night, well, guys and women, but there's a four or five of us that sit together at the end of this long table in the restaurant that we go to. They set out this long table. And two of them, They're in their late forties. They do exactly what I used to do. The food just vanishes off their plate. Yeah.

Jeannene:

I've certainly had the same experience, possibly for different reasons. Okay. Well, some different reasons, but I was brought up with two older brothers and as a family, my parents would buy prawns and then we'd put them in the middle of the table. when we did that on those occasions and we'd have our bread, or yeah, some sort of something to have with them, but often we'd have prawns on bread. And. The faster you peeled them, the more you got.

Kevin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeannene:

And my brothers were good. I got to be very good at peeling prawns and still am people. So don't challenge me. Yeah. Cause I like a challenge. I got to be fast at peeling prawns for that reason. So similar to yours, because if you didn't, you didn't get as many.

Kevin:

It just reminds me of prawn cocktails. Did you have prawn cocktails here? So you're talking about prawns. I never really had prawns until I was, living on my own in London, because we had this, wouldn't have it at home, but you'd go somewhere, I don't know, some sort of celebration and there would be little glasses, like, you know, Funny little glasses and they would have all of this sauce in it and some other things and lettuce and prawns stuck in there as well, but the prawns had already been decapitated and, they'd been civilized.

Jeannene:

Civilized prawns people.

Kevin:

Yes, civilized prawns.

Jeannene:

Well we were brought up doing a lot of camping down on the beautiful south coast of New South Wales. Near Batemans Bays and Doris Lakes, amazing waterways people. my father was a fisherman and my mother was a fisher person as well. And so they used to go out to sea and catch fish and say, We'd go prawning and we'd do a whole lot of things. So I was brought up with a lot of seafood and we used to eat a lot that way. And so I was very familiar with prawns and um, really good fish and really good seafood, abalone, those sorts of things that would be normally quite expensive, but I was brought up that way.

Kevin:

We got cod. on a, only on a Friday. Okay. Roman Catholic, you know, no meat on a Friday, so we'd have fish and chips. Yeah, I don't, can't get a handle on the poverty bit. Really, really, the wealth thing is more about the inside than it is the outside.

Jeannene:

I think poverty is similar. Don't you think? Ah! No, I can't say that people, that's not true, is it? Well, it's partially true. But you can feel impoverished even though you've got enough.

Kevin:

Yeah, but when you haven't got enough, you haven't got enough and that's that. Yeah. But yeah, but I like the stuff that we both agreed with, it's like, you don't know that you're living in poverty until you're armed enough and surrounded enough by it. People that, who are not living in poverty,

Jeannene:

yeah. So the comparison thing keeps coming to mind as we're talking about this. I don't know how to talk about it, Kevin. Cause, comparing ourselves to other people can always be detrimental. it can be inspirational, can be healthy. Yeah. But mostly it's a negative experience where people compare yourself. let's look at the Facebook thing. When people look on Facebook and see other people having wonderful time or wonderful experience or glossy photos and you want to shout at

Kevin:

them,

Jeannene:

you want to shout at

Kevin:

them. Yeah. Bugger off. I don't believe you. That's not fair.

Jeannene:

Well, I certainly can have those experiences as well, because you're seeing all these wonderful things happening and thinking, well, life is hard or life is difficult or, if at the time that you're looking, you're looking at something and you're thinking, well, I don't get to do that, or I haven't had those experiences, then you can. superficially look at what you're seeing and thinking it's all glossy and wonderful. And sometimes that's what people are wanting to show.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Jeannene:

But that may not be their experience either. Well, I think

Kevin:

in, in, in just about all the cases, it's, it's not a hundred percent.

Jeannene:

Nah.

Kevin:

No, not even close.

Jeannene:

I still want to talk about this comparison thing, because I think that people can really do themselves a disservice. I think you can really say that I'm not like the person out there or I haven't got enough or I'm, uh, I know why it is because you can play victim that when I say play, it's, it's like a role play that, that is a risk and that can take you to a place Persecuting others or yourself, um, in that experience. I think that's where

Kevin:

your energy's gone.

Jeannene:

Yep.

Kevin:

Whereas you can choose to go, Oh, okay, enough of that. And I'll take my energy somewhere else. I'll put my energy somewhere else. Yeah.

Jeannene:

We often talk about that. Let me see if I can say that more practically. Because I can sit here and I can think. Oh, I don't know how to, I think because I'm so far from thinking like that anymore.

Kevin:

Yes. Yeah. I go back to the actually living in poverty thing and I go, yeah, okay, there's got to be an improvement there. So, you know, it's not okay for anyone to be living in poverty, but once you're actually not, so that you've got those basic things, then it all becomes. How you live inside yourself, how do I live inside myself and do I, like you were talking about, you know, do I get distracted with comparing my, Facebook's like the worst possible thing, Facebook and Instagram, and it's kind of, well some people do, but very few people jump on Facebook and say, hey, I'm a balanced person, this is how my life is. So it's like, you know, they're either in dire trouble or they're. Living a perfect life. I know I told you the story about a friend of mine, who I guess is quite famous, is quite famous and I reconnected with him after a long time, but I sort of don't really know how to relate to him and I just assume he's really busy and not available and I'm speaking to another friend of mine who's, and he said, well, you gotta remember he lives in a different world. And I said, yeah, yeah, of course. I gathered that. He said, well, I don't know if you did. He lives in a bubble. You know what, you see him talking about is, actually his life. I went, oh. And I said, so how do I connect with him? He said, you connect with him how he always did. That's up to you. But it's like, it's, yeah, I dunno why I told you that. It's really difficult, but this guy actually. Well, it doesn't post about that stuff anywhere, but you can see from what he's doing. Um, yeah,

Jeannene:

so I guess you're saying that we could judge people on what's happening on the outside, but we still don't know whether they're. have wealth inside or they're impoverished.

Kevin:

That's right. So that's what I was trying to say earlier. So this whole thing about poverty and wealth, which is this podcast is, have you got that on the inside? What have you got on the inside? Yeah. Yeah. So then it doesn't mean I have to feel guilty about including poverty because I'm talking about what have you on the inside? Yeah. And I have a right to talk about that because I Experienced all of it, and so have you.

Jeannene:

At levels, yeah. Yeah.

Kevin:

That was my phone, people. It's being naughty and talking to you.

Jeannene:

Maybe we'll stop?

Kevin:

Yeah, we'll stop. Stoppy stop stop stop.

Jeannene:

As mine and Greg's wealth has increased and over the years, we've given money away to family and we've cared for, different family members differently, doing different things with goods, services, housing, cars, et cetera. As needs have arrived, those sorts of things. I think it's easier to give things away than to receive. And I've been really aware that if we've given something to somebody that it's really important that. We, or me, or that I equally receive something with that humility and with the acceptance of, even if it's help through a service or a kindness rather than a wealth or a gift or a monetary value. But it's been really important to me that I make sure that it's, that I'm open to receiving things because I think it's, so much easier to give than it is to receive. Or it can be. And some people have circumstances where they've been forced to be very humble and may even feel very ashamed of needing to ask for something. And I feel very fortunate. I don't think I've faced that. But I certainly want to be humble and I want to be grateful and I want to ask if I need some help or need some support or need finances, I want to make sure that I'm comfortable and okay being on the tail end of that as well.

Kevin:

Yeah, it's difficult to ask for help, or I find it difficult to ask for help. But if I don't, I'm usually heading towards trouble. Yeah. Internally, if not externally as well. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Yeah. I think you've done that really well,

Kevin:

Kevin. Yeah. I can't claim entire credit for that. I got a lot of help from Narcotics Anonymous and a lot of help from you. And, yeah. Yeah, both of those things. So, I can't think of a good way to wrap this up. We've talked about

Jeannene:

poverty and

Kevin:

wealth, and the only thing I came up with while we had a little stop and were talking about it was, what do you guys out there think? You know, it's not an easy topic, and it operates on many levels, so, I don't know how to finish it, except to say that it's finished, and I hope it gives you something to think about, and we'd be interested in feedback.

Jeannene:

I think what I would say is our podcast gives us this opportunity to have a conversation, and it's the first. It's the first of many that we can have, and I think that maybe we draw different conclusions if we have a similar. Conversation run a conversation around a similar or same topic. Even tomorrow. It could be different. Even tomorrow. Yeah. Good point, Kevin. What I want to say to people is often to actually really explore a topic or explore what we think about something, we need to have many conversations.

Kevin:

Yeah. It's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeannene:

So hopefully people, this is the first of many conversations that you'll have. That we can have. Yeah. Around this topic of wealth and poverty and we've just started.

Kevin:

And if you feel like giving, I'll give you my bank account details.

Jeannene:

You had to end that way, didn't

Kevin:

you? I did, didn't I? Yeah, but it's not true. I think like you just said I have trouble receiving help, which is what I meant when I say I It's not just about asking for help, it's about actually taking the help that you've asked for.

Jeannene:

It's not an easy thing. No. So, I wanna. Validate your experience of that and consolidate it. Of course, you know, of course that would be difficult. and we hope that too many people out there haven't experienced, poverty or impoverished, and sometimes that can change very quickly and through circumstances that none of us are in control of. So I wish you all well out there. And, looking forward to chatting with you again, and you again, Kevin. Yeah. Soon. Yep.

Kevin:

Okay.

Jeannene:

Okay.

Kevin:

Thank you.

Jeannene:

And bye for now.

Kevin:

Bye.

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Jeannene

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Kevin

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