Inward Journey

Our Qualities - Episode 23

• Jeannene n Kevin • Season 1 • Episode 23

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Jeannene:

We recognise the strength, resilience and capacity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people.

Kevin:

Australia comprises many Aboriginal and Torres Strait nations. We would like to acknowledge all of the traditional custodians of the land within Australia.

Jeannene:

We pay respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Elders past and present.

Kevin:

I said it. No, you didn't. I

Jeannene:

didn't hear it

Kevin:

people, did you? I can't hear them, so that doesn't count. See, it's so difficult. I'm generous. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. I'm intelligent. You said that. Yeah, some of them are so difficult. I'd want you to say I'm creative, and I am, but that's so hard for me to say. Well, how

Jeannene:

come? Because I'm sitting here and I'm just going, nyeh, creative. Hello and welcome to the podcast. You're here with Janayne and Kevin. And what's our topic today, Kevin? R6.

Kevin:

What? R6. Or You did that on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Commonly known as, what you got? What you got? Yeah. Well, assets. Assets. Not arses. It's pretty close. Did you mean to say arse ets? I did mean to say arse ets. Does that make me an arse?

Jeannene:

It's kind of hard to talk about the, the topic if it's

Kevin:

Arse ets? Yes. It's not. It's assets. And we didn't really like that word, so I came up with, what do you got? And you didn't really like that? No, I don't like that. I still don't like it. Anyway, we're talking about today. We're talking about things that, about us and about others and about general community that are good.

Jeannene:

The qualities or traits that we might have. Is that what

Kevin:

we are talking about? Yes. That sort of thing. and anything around that. Yeah. The good stuff. The good stuff. So, I mean, the good stuff can start really simply, like, going for a walk in the morning. I say hello to people as I'm talking to them, but I'm really focused on the birds. Okay. Because I don't often see them. The trees are huge. They're really tall. But I can hear all the different birds. Yeah. And the cockatoos, they're usually In abundance and they're flying all over the place and you can hear them Talking and singing and then the magpies and then some other birds that I can't recognize and they're my favorite the kookaburras I know they're so beautiful. They're just incredible and I always think of my dad when I hear them We were up at the Grampians just outside the Grampians and the next day we were gonna head down to towards Portland and We were in this caravan park In the morning, he came rushing over to our caravan and banged on the door and said, Kevin, come and see this! And I'm outside, and there was like a telegraph pole, and there was all these kookaburras lined up. They weren't singing, but yeah, they were all there. They were having an

Jeannene:

AGM. They were having an AGM.

Kevin:

But that sort of thing is really positive. Well, it can be positive. I mean, you could just not notice it.

Jeannene:

What's the asset you're trying to bring here? What would you say about yourself? Noticing things. How would you say it? I want a word.

Kevin:

I know you do. I don't know.

Jeannene:

Well, we could say it was in the moment.

Kevin:

I'm alright here to tell

Jeannene:

us a word, folks. We could call it in the moment, or we could call it present, or Yeah, that would

Kevin:

work. Nah, it's sort of

Jeannene:

wishy washy, isn't it? Yeah, I suppose so. But it's seeing what life's offering you, isn't it?

Kevin:

I'm nature on the same day even. I could walk down the same path and the same things would be happening And I wouldn't hear or see any of it. Yeah, and yet it's still there. Yeah, so it's a

Jeannene:

So is it a night being a nature lover? Not really.

Kevin:

No? No. Just noticing. I'm just talking shit. No. We're supposed to be talking about positive things. So far we've got assets and shit. That's not a very good start. It's okay. Yeah.

Jeannene:

So. No, I think there's something really beautiful about that, around noticing the good things that life has to offer when you're, you know. Walking around or whatever you're doing doing life, and I thought about

Kevin:

this topic I should tell to you I thought seeing as I've been thinking about integrity recently I thought about this topic because in narcotics anonymous We were encouraged to go through the steps, which is the main thing of the program. Yeah Step four, there's a whole bunch of things that you have to do, write down, basically. And then you share them with your sponsor. And the last one on those lists, you know, starts with resentments, and then relationships, and then sexual stuff. And it goes on and on and on. Really good stuff. And then the last one is assets. And all of us struggle. To put down assets. So my sponsor first time said you've got to put down at least 10 and I would prefer 20 Oh, that's really cool. And I found him the next day and said John I've got three

Jeannene:

Three's the start

Kevin:

Was really difficult obviously it was difficult then, you know, yeah, I mean early recovery, but it would still be difficult and here we are Struggling. Yeah, so what's so what's good about you?

Jeannene:

Oh I think quite a few things. There you go. Tell us. Um, Tell us one or two. Well, I'm a very caring person. That's true. What I have found myself doing more recently is I went up, as you know, I took a trip up to Sydney to see my mum. Yep. So that's about ten and a half hours of driving away. So I took Asha and we had a good time together and had a good time with my mum, just checking on how she's going, she's elderly. And when we returned home, I went and visited my kids, supporting them, doing a few other things, mowing the lawn, doing, uh, some washing and a few other things like that. And what I love about that is when I come home, I feel good about me. Yeah. Because I think if I was just to focus on doing these things. Then, the risk is that if I'm just doing things in life and I don't give myself any credit, then I reckon I'd build up in resentment. Yep. And you know how Important that is for me not to build up in resentment. So for me, what I would say about myself is really caring and I know that about myself. I go good on you Janine for being that caring person because I do that and I love it. I love what that offers me from those people and it doesn't always come straight away, but it does come and I just find that I'm appreciated and I love that. But I need to appreciate myself before I get there with being appreciated from others.

Kevin:

Yeah. Does that make sense? Yep. Makes sense. Here we are just a few minutes into the program. There aren't many things. It's much more difficult. It's not that there aren't many. It's much more difficult to talk about. It is

Jeannene:

much more difficult to talk about,

Kevin:

that's true. Yeah. Gwendolyn in particular.

Jeannene:

Yeah. I know that I have intelligence. It took me a long time to actually be able to own that or say that because I bombed out in school. Though I'd worked really hard, I didn't do well at school. And I went on doing a high school certificate and Still didn't do well. And the reason I went on is because I didn't think I'd get any work. Which, there wasn't much work around and I wasn't very skilled. So I continued on to build up my maturity and hopefully there'd be some work or something available. Didn't matriculate into university as you did back then. Came out in a recession. Looking for work in, uh, 1982 and 83. So it was a really tough time, and it took some time for me to eventually go down the welfare line of things, uh, but I still for many years thought I didn't hold much intelligence until I started to recognize that intelligence can be held differently, and that I had a reading problem, and there were different things I could do around that, around my comprehension, and then changed everything. So, I can say that now with confidence. That's great. I'm

Kevin:

intelligent. That's great. I never thought much about it. I've always known that I've been smart, but I've never actually thought about it in a positive way. Yeah. You know, so. I mean, I do now, and I failed at school just like you. But I didn't care.

Jeannene:

For different reasons.

Kevin:

Well, yeah. Because I didn't want to do it. Yeah.

Jeannene:

It still has the same result though, doesn't it? Yes. You just feel like a failure. Whether you try or whether you don't try.

Kevin:

Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah. I remember how good it felt to get into university though. Going around universities to do it again, no, you've got no qualifications, you didn't finish this, you didn't do these exams, and I wouldn't stop trying, one wasn't a university, Isthmianov was a, a polytechnic, so it was like, that was happening around England, they were, not new universities, but polytechnics popping up, basically universities, so I went to one in the north of London. And they said, yeah, you haven't got the requirements. I said, yeah, here we go. But, oh, yeah, we'll accept you. If you'll take these exams, and you have to pass them. And there were about four exams, three or four. And having done that, then you'd have to do your degree, and complete an, an Applied Mathematics Diploma. So I agreed to do that. That felt really good. Not actually, but yeah, getting accepted and getting in, that felt good. So

Jeannene:

what do you take away from that now? If we're talking about now, this moment, Kevin, what can you say about yourself in terms of assets? I'm

Kevin:

smart. Yeah. You mean, how do I feel about myself?

Jeannene:

Yeah, I really I think even claiming that you're smart is a really important attribute that when you can give that to yourself, there's something that really can resonate with your body and soothe. It's

Kevin:

like something that I don't have to discuss. It just is, and I feel really good about it, and I don't have to lord it over anybody else or anything like that. It's just there.

Jeannene:

Oh, don't you think that that's the thing is that when I think particularly white Australians have this idea that, and perhaps this happens for other cultures, that if you say your attributes or your assets or the good things about yourself that you're actually putting someone else down or you're getting a big head. Or, uh, you're throwing it in their face, or it's something. Tall poppy syndrome. The tall poppy syndrome. Out here. Yeah, oh, very much so. Can

Kevin:

you describe to our listeners, because I'm not really sure what it is, I just know. Well. It's very Australian.

Jeannene:

It is very Australian in the sense that, I don't know the full part of the story, but basically there's the poppy grows up and it lifts its head above. Everything else, and says how wonderful you are, and what happens is the poppy gets cut down. Yep. And so what happens is, white Australians don't like anyone lifting their head up above anybody else, and so they cut it down quickly. So you're like everybody else and you're not big noting yourself, but it's that idea that you're throwing it in your face

Kevin:

I like being good at things. I know that I'm a good photographer. Yeah, I struggled with that as well I'm not like being intelligent. I just know that I am and I'm okay with it, but I guess it's kind of weird I didn't have to learn to be intelligent In some ways I had to learn about photography, in the same way that I had to learn to be a programmer. Now I feel really okay about that, confident about that too. Like if there's something that needs doing, I can do it. I might not do it the way some people want it done, but I can still do it, yeah.

Jeannene:

But I think it's the Being able to give it to yourself and know that it doesn't do any of those nasty things to anyone else.

Kevin:

Oh,

Jeannene:

yeah. No. It's just for you. I love that you can say

Kevin:

that. It actually does the opposite of people willing to let that happen. Yeah, yeah. I feel lifted up, and I say so, but does it possibly lift others up around me?

Jeannene:

I think it actually gives everybody around you permission to do the same, and for themselves. Yeah, it does. If I was to put you down, then you're more likely to put me down, and we're likely to put others around, down around us as well. Yeah. So it becomes this, um, destructive thing that happens.

Kevin:

See how difficult it is to talk about assets?

Jeannene:

That's why you said it that way, isn't it?

Kevin:

Why? Oh, no, not really. I just, I just came out.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Just being cheeky, Kevin.

Kevin:

I struggle with some things like I really, um, obviously I like music, but I don't play anything. I played drums for a little while before drugs took over when I was very young. But I, I struggle, so I've got this really, really beautiful keyboard in my house and I've got it hooked up to an amplifier so I can hear it everywhere and it surrounds me when I play it. And I don't practice. So if I don't practice, I don't get any better at it. Well that's a choice though. No, I don't make that choice. Well, I do, don't I? Yeah, you do. I make a choice that I'll practice. That's why I've got it there. That's why I've set it up. That's why I put it in a really nice position in the house. And then I don't practice it. So I don't do that with my other things. So with my camera, I take it with me. And in fact, I'm often, you'll often find me charging the batteries, cleaning the lenses. Not even, not planning to do any, and put it near the door, so that when I head out, I take it with me.

Jeannene:

Okay. So, we could say some things about you, or I come up with a whole lot of lists, because I also, I know you well. But tell me, what would you say about yourself in terms of assets or attributes or good stuff? I said it. Nah,

Kevin:

nah, you didn't. Um. I didn't hear it people, did you? Nah. I can't hear them, so that doesn't count. See, it's so difficult. I'm generous. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. I'm intelligent. You said that. Yeah, some of them are so difficult. I wanted to say I'm creative, and I am. Yeah. But that's so hard for me to say. Well, how come?

Jeannene:

Because I'm sitting here, and I'm just going, Creative. You're talking about photography. Yeah. We're,

Kevin:

we're talking about Writing, photography. Yeah. Programming. Yeah. I've seen all that's created. And yet I only separate out programming and go, um, as comfortable as that, as I am with being intelligent. Yeah. But the other two, no. So it's weird. It's almost like the left part of my brain wants to Grab hold of that and explain it away.

Jeannene:

Yeah, I know. Yeah. I know, because I'm thinking about attributes of myself. When you just say them on their own, they're really solid. They're kind of, you can't wish them away or you can't make it soften or anything. Creative, it just is. It's strong.

Kevin:

It is. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, creative. I put that down. Even though I'm sort of nodding my head and being tentative about it. Yeah, I don't know. I think about some things. I'm a good friend. That comes without any resistance. Yep, I can vouch for that. Yep. And I was thinking, I'm a good dad? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I was with my friend I told you about earlier. Yeah. And we're doing this, we're doing a project. Yeah. Well it's helping me start a project, which is called Kevin project. It's a project on me. And it's mostly, um, factual based. Although there is some other stuff in it. Anyway, so we got to family and he's, he's given me you know, some examples of humour like that. Yeah, and he looked at me and I and uh, family of origin. My parents are dead, my oldest brother's dead, my brother and sister don't talk to me. So that's the family of origin gone. And then I dismissed the others and said, Well, my daughter Kylie lives 5, 000 kilometres away, so there's not much happening there. And my grandchildren as well are over there. And I didn't even mention that I've got a son in Auckland and two grandchildren there. So, but then later on, after I'd gone, And I was actually sitting at home looking at the spreadsheet and refining it, and then got to family, and I almost moved on. I'm like, hang on. I could do some things about this. I can't go there at the moment. I could call her on a regular basis. Yeah. And if she doesn't answer, I could send her a text on a regular basis. You could, yeah. I could ask her to send me pictures, because I know she will. Yeah. Stuff like that. There is stuff that I could do. Does that make me a good dad? I don't know.

Jeannene:

Well, when you said it, I had this thought, and I've thought about this before. So, saying that, for example, I'm a good mum, is not for me to say. Ah, right. So, you saying you're a good dad is not for you to say. But what you can say is, I'm dedicated to being a good dad. Or, changing. What has occurred in the past. Like, I would say I'm dedicated family member, I'm caring, I'm devoted. I might say those sorts of things, or how you parent again, and how your children find that is really up to them. Yep. So I might say those things about myself and feel really good about that, and they might say no, or they might go absolutely and more. Again, that's really up to them. That's them. Yeah, but you still can say very much some things about yourself because I know you've made some significant changes in your life. So I imagine who you are as a parent, as a partner, as a family member would change as well. Yeah.

Kevin:

So what else? I don't know. I'm really funny. I'm good. I love having fun. I love playing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I've learned to be careful with it. Yeah. Because, yeah, we'll learn to be careful with it because it can be hurtful if you take it too far. Yeah. Here we are again, and I think I'll, uh, ask you if you've got anything to add at this point. Why are you laughing at? Oh,

Jeannene:

because now I have to talk about my assets.

Kevin:

Yeah, but I know that you've got something in

Jeannene:

particular. Oh, there were some things I wanted to talk about, because as we were talking about this, Nelson Mandela's speech came to mind. Yeah. His inaugural speech, and I'll talk about that in a second. I guess when I think about my traits or assets, the qualities I bring That's a

Kevin:

good word. Yeah, it is a good word. Yeah.

Jeannene:

Okay. Maybe that's what we could have called it. Yeah, qualities. I think about I'm resilient. I can be absolutely determined to do something and I will do it. In the past I will have done that. Um, even though there might be adverse effects on me, but now I'm less competitive or pushy with me so much as just keep going, Janine. So that real, not driven self, but more like supportive, come on, you can do it kind of thing. So I would say that I'm creative. There's other things like determined, and now I've gone stuck. I can't think of the things. Perseverance. Perseverance, all of that sort of stuff. That would be definitely part of my personality and who I am. I think the other thing that I've been learning about myself Which is interesting as an older person is that I'm skilled. I've got skills that I didn't realize that I had. I'm able to write, and I'm able to dance and sing, and there's a whole lot of things that I'm able to do. Podcast. Podcast. Oh. Make a podcast. Yeah. The other things I do is I've run groups and worked with people and I'm good with people but I think the thing that I'm interested in around this is that I know those things. I can tell you those things to you, Kevin, and I can tell those things to you in private Hmm. And I can talk with those things with my family and I can talk with them about their skills, etc. But I think what I'm liking about this topic is I don't have to prove anything. I don't have to push. If you don't agree with me, that's okay. Because I just need to know it for myself. Because it's not about one upmanship. And it's not about being better. So if you're intelligent or creative, that doesn't take from my experience. It's just who you are, which is fabulous. And then I can have my own experience or understanding of my own intelligence and creative, and that could be different or less or more. It's irrelevant. It just is. So, I think there's something really grounding and supportive around that and I guess that's the thing I wanted to

Kevin:

say. Okay. That's clear. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Jeannene:

And then there was Nelson Mandela's speech. Yeah. So, I've got to read this out because I love it. I've talked about it. For a very long time, there's only two lines in it that talk about being a child of God or having God within us. And I'm going to leave people with their own interpretation of that, or just understanding that's where Nelson was, or yeah, had been when he wrote this, but the other parts of the speech that are really important that I think that I've really learnt about myself to be with. Okay, here it goes. Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, Our presence automatically liberates others.

Kevin:

Mm.

Jeannene:

That's brilliant. That's pretty cool. He wrote that in

Kevin:

1994. Mm. Mm.

Jeannene:

I love that. As I'm with myself with these attributes or assets or qualities. Yep. And as you're with yourself with those attributes, assets or qualities. Yeah. Then we give each other. all those around us permission to do the same. I think that's so true. I think that's so true when you degrade yourself as well. I think that that happens in reverse as well. That's that negative thing that happens.

Kevin:

So do you encourage everybody around you to be negative?

Jeannene:

Yeah. Yeah, I think so too.

Kevin:

But I heard, I think I got it here. I heard the first, I'm sorry, bang. I made a bang again. I heard the first part of that. I'm going to go, yeah, that's me. Our deepest fear is not that we're inadequate or our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, but our darkness that most frightens us, so that when I'm talking to you about what's good about me, what have I got, what are my qualities, then I'm okay for a moment and then, then it's frightening. Yeah. You know, it'd become very safe to be a drug addict and then a drug addict in recovery and it wasn't safe to be a drug addict, but you know, it was familiar and it was safe and familiar to be a drug addict in recovery and still is to a certain extent and to not stick my head up. Yeah. Yeah. You just, and to do that, to stand out from any of my peers, which I started to do. You get such odd reactions, and I have to, um, do what you said, which is push on, just keep doing. Like that tool. I get an odd reaction from me as well. Yeah. So if I spend the day in bed, just because I decided that it was all too much or it's a bad day. Yeah. Yeah, I don't feel great. Okay. But if I spend, I don't know. The whole day being creative, if I'm doing that Yeah, so I go out, let's say I go out and I take some fantastic photographs, and I'm feeling really good about them, and I go and talk to somebody about them, and they're like, ho hum. I say, go away. I go, can't, can't go away, and think, what the hell am I doing? You know, that was like So what?

Jeannene:

See, that's where I said you're so affected by someone's disinterest, or perhaps putting down what you're doing, or dislike of what you're doing, they haven't valued the fact that you're excited or skilled or anything like that. They might not see that. So

Kevin:

I'm either sharing that with the wrong people, or I'm not believing that what I'm doing is okay. Or both of those things, I think it's both,

Jeannene:

yeah. I'm interested. Hang on. Hang on. I'm interested if you focus on your qualities or your assets, right? Does it feel like maybe you're moving beyond being, and I'm going to say this weirdly, just a recovering

Kevin:

addict? Yeah. It feels like I'm putting my head out, above the other poppies, or above whatever else is there.

Jeannene:

So, are you saying that you're recognising or realising that you can be empowered?

Kevin:

I am, and I'm listening to the wrong voices, often. So I'm listening to the voices around me, it's like ho hum, yeah, you know, this is, you need to be doing this stuff, not that stuff. But I'm also surrounded by other people like you, and a couple of artist friends, and they just go, yeah of course that's good. How come you're not doing blah blah blah with that? You could sell those, you could have an exhibition, you could do all of these things. You could write a book, you could do podcasts. And gradually I'm doing them, but I do it. I do a lot of this stuff that I call creative, not yet 100 percent believing in myself, so, so writing a book, doing a podcast with you is not easy, but I'll do it because I've made the commitment, and I know that if I do that, I'm also going to enjoy it at

Jeannene:

some point. Yeah, and you're having so much fun.

Kevin:

And I'm having fun, and writing a book. Is the same. So, I'll do it because I know that we're doing it together. And I also know that it will encourage me to do other writing too, which it has. And, so yeah. So, sticking my head up against all of that. And I suspect there's more, it's like, It's not always other people trying to cut down the poppy, it's me as well. So it's like I'm having this inner battle, which is very familiar, I've got this whole range. I heard someone describe it really well the other day, so, you know, I'm a girl and I'm alright, and blah blah blah, and he just took it, and suddenly, you know, suddenly the world goes fucking crazy, because in my head, it's just ping pong. And I didn't have to have him explain, I knew what he meant. Just an argument going on in his head, you know, what you're doing is really brilliant, that's great. And he goes, no, what the fuck are you doing, you know, just useless and that. Let's go and sit down. And that second

Jeannene:

lot of talk, sounds like it brings you back down to the familiar and the secure.

Kevin:

Even the talk is familiar. Yeah. So it pulls the poppy down again, and I go, oh, here again, okay. Well at least it's

Jeannene:

familiar. Yeah, and familiar is actually Quite powerful because I think familiar is attached to secure because it's not the same. No, but you can feel very secure because this is what you know.

Kevin:

Oh, I see.

Jeannene:

Yes. And because it's secure, then I know what I know is going to happen. And I know how I'm going to put myself down or other people are. And I know what's going to happen. But if I grow taller. If I become that poppy, if I become that brilliantly coloured flower, if I stand up above, then how will I look after me, maintain me, how will I continue to believe in me, if some of the other gets sent to me, or where do I start putting myself down? I think it's a tricky thing to do, to change your patterns

Kevin:

like that. I've got some great examples of me, so, you know, there aren't many photographs of me. Most photographers would say that they do. There are some photographs, not many, because other people have to take them. I'm usually standing behind the camera. But. And I was 72 now, so, and I was in my mid sixties for some reason, I started looking back for photographs of me, and I, I got quite a shock, and I still do when I see them, I, there's one in particular which would have been taken in, say, 1991, and a friend took it in, I think it was in Hyde Park in London and I'd gone back with my daughter with Chloe. And it was winter, and I was sitting on the bench, having a cigarette. And I just looked up as my friend took a photograph of me. And I look at that, and I first found that photograph after years of not looking at it. I looked at it, and I went, oh my god, that's me. I look so handsome. You didn't know that about you? No, as far as I was concerned, I was an ugly bugger. Oh. I was really ugly. And then more recently, I've looked at photographs so close to me, and I go, yeah, still really handsome. So I'm thinking, and then I, you know, some days I get up and I'm potting around the kitchen and I go, I'm just an old ugly bastard. And I go, I wonder if in ten years time Am I going to have to wait for another 10 years and I'll look at a photograph of me now and go, You're looking really good.

Jeannene:

They're wonderful things to ponder. Are they? Yeah. Why? And really start to consider what's your choice now. My

Kevin:

choice is not to question it. Oh, that's one of the choices, isn't it? Yeah,

Jeannene:

but also around believing in yourself. Yeah, because that's what it is. And staying with the qualities that you know and can be and not be influenced by the old patterns. I wish I could

Kevin:

find it. Oh, I can find it and put it on. You can. Put it on our Instagram. Which is called Inward Journey pod. Inward Journey pod. We put photographs on there. If we've been talking about photographs in the book. Well, so now I have. So I can find a couple. But yeah, I really like them. So there's one of me sitting there and somebody took another one. It was over here. Well, it's summer and I've got one of those silly floppy hats on and a pair of sunglasses. I'm obviously steering a rather large boat somewhere. I think it's on the Yarra somewhere. Yeah. Same thing, I look at it and I'm like, oh my god, that could be somebody else. Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. That could be somebody else, but it's not, it's me. Fabulous.

Jeannene:

I have a similar story, Kevin, because I feel that when I've started to realize some things about myself, that it's easy to, Criticize myself or believe that I'm not capable of doing the things that feel different to other people that if they feel like they don't fit into the nice neat category of I don't know. Older person. Probably don't. Grandmother. Oh gosh, no. But I'm still influenced by that. Yes. Surprisingly. Yes. And so there becomes like I can relate to the ping pong. I imagine my ping pong's a bit different to yours. But I don't so much as bully myself anymore or put myself down. Used to do that. Used to have a very harsh inner critic and push myself in sport as well. And you'd end up with injuries that way, that's for sure. I don't have that, but what I do have is going, Oh, are you capable, Janine? Are you sure? Are you sure you could do this? And now I feel like I'm, even at this age, I'm going to be 60 this year, is that I'm starting to go, of course. You can do this. Let's just see. Or you can do so many things, what's your choice? So go slow and choose your pathway, choose what you can do, and you don't have to prove anything to anyone. And that would be the thing that I would say that, that a true quality or an asset that I'm holding or that you are holding, or others out there are holding isn't about. Having to explain it or tell someone I'm intelligent. It's not that person who goes, well, I've done this and I've done this and I'm capable and I'm skillful and I'm planning to do these particular projects. It's none of that. And it's not building yourself up. It just is. It's just holding unskilled. And it doesn't get held as a threat to anybody else, or a comparison. None of this comparison shit. Let's get rid of that. Let's just, each person have their own level of attributes and qualities that are not to be compared with anybody else's. They just are. Hmm. Aren't you amazing? Oh, that's fantastic. I'm amazing in this area. Or, I'm not so good at this, but I'm good at this thing. That's the thing I

Kevin:

wanted to say. Now, the opposite of that, I was just remembering, I think it's Michael Douglas, starred in a movie called Wolf Wall Street or something like that. Okay. And they were all talking about being big. The Masters of the Universe, or the Stockbrokers, it's just like, it's yuck, it makes me want to throw up. So, don't watch it. Don't, don't care about any more money, that was a terrible movie. Yeah.

Jeannene:

There are so many things that influence us, I think, to, uh, our detriment, and that don't focus on qualities and good things. It's time for it to be different people. It's time.

Kevin:

It's kind of like, it's time to stand up. Okay. Yeah. Time to, maybe not time, stand my ground. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know. Just for you. Bit by bit. Yep. Yep.

Jeannene:

And it's not a threat. And it's not a. Oh no. Throwing in somebody's face, it just is. No.

Kevin:

Like tomorrow. Okay. Tomorrow night. What's happening tomorrow night? We're going to the publishers'cause they have a, an open mic night. Yeah. And I've been there a few times and we're going because, well, because it's a publisher, we'll be looking for a publisher, but also because what they do there is most of what they do there for the hour and a half is people get up and read a bit from what they've been writing. For three or four minutes, I think four minutes is the time limit. And that would be a good thing to do, for us to do. We're not going to do that, we're going to take it slowly. Because I want to. And I'm not sure about this publisher, so, uh, yeah. I'd like us to sit and listen. Yeah. And then Well it's interesting because Plan to go, next

Jeannene:

time. Yeah, and I'm a bit nervous about going, I've not been before. And it's not really sure what to expect, but that's out of my comfort zone, but what it's doing is stepping out, um, planning to go forward.

Kevin:

It's free food. It's not free. You have to pay five dollars, so it's interesting they call it free food. It's not really. Anyway. I should only have to pay two dollars because I don't eat much of the food and I don't drink alcohol. Do you want to tell them that? Nah. It's not going to go down well. Okay, so. I'll just play the five dots. Okay. But I'm kind of looking forward to it. I still feel a little awkward being there. But I'm interested to hear what people, if I get some interesting stuff like someone who's a guy who's a civil engineer. I think he's written three books about civil engineering. Okay. And it doesn't fire me up. But when he gets up to read about it, you know, you're caught in his passion. For engineering, yeah, even though, if he'd have just said, I'm going to talk about building this bridge and I'm going to like yawn, but because when he's reading it, he's really caught up in it, you get like, get caught up too.

Jeannene:

Oh, that's lovely. So that's that. He's enthusiastic. Yeah. And his passion. Yep. Is something that everyone else can experience in the room as well.

Kevin:

Yeah, he's reading along and he holds up pictures. He's got pictures. He's obviously really clever. Yeah.

Jeannene:

It's a great reflection thinking about Am I interested in this moment? Am I excited about what I'm hearing? Because often that's the other person's experience as well.

Kevin:

Oh, okay. No, not okay. What do you mean? Well You have to give me an example. Yeah,

Jeannene:

so, if we're bored with the topic that we're talking about If we're not enthusiastic, if we, uh, yeah, we stop, because if this is happening for us, it's likely to happen for those people

Kevin:

out there. Yeah, that's right. So, the engineer, don't fall asleep, because he's really fired up. Yeah. You know, and he sort of can't wait to get out of his seat, because he doesn't get to say, you know, there's a list of people who are going to read, and he's waiting for his name, and he's got no idea, so I don't know. They've got to be like, boom, out of his seat. There's a creative,

Jeannene:

there's a creative project for us. Let's talk about a topic that's boring and make it exciting and enthusiastic. We'll talk about tablecloths.

Kevin:

No. No? Well, this is a really nice tablecloth. What makes it really nice is it's got interesting patterns, but the most, this is the thing that makes it really interesting. We're sitting at a round table, beautiful round table. Tablecloth is made for a round table. I know because it's

Jeannene:

got

Kevin:

elastic around it. It's elastic and it tucks underneath and it fits perfectly. Which

Jeannene:

means we can't wiggle it. And it ends up on the floor.

Kevin:

It's perfectly ordered. Janine's speciality. Order. Are you Yeah. Order. Mm,

Jeannene:

no. Yeah. Yeah. That's me. I'm, I might say organized people, but if Kevin wants to call me

Kevin:

ordered, that's fine. Organized. It's fine. OCD, ah, could be. I, I don't, I don't care. That's fine. Yeah. Everybody has a bit of that. I certainly can be like that. Well, yeah, it's really fun. And there's another, there's a meeting that I go to, and, and they, they, we have banners, yeah? We just have all sorts of things on. And, this particular meeting, they don't put them on the wall, because I don't think we're allowed to. So they, it's a big, big wooden floor, so they put them on the floor, and they're all laid out nice and neat. And when it's done, when it's done and it's all perfect, I'll walk right across them and screw them all up. You

Jeannene:

cheeky

Kevin:

sod. Yeah. But I have to stop doing that because now they all know who it is.

Jeannene:

And you've just kind of announced it.

Kevin:

Yeah, okay. Oh yeah, Kevin's here. Oh yeah. So I like doing things like that.

Jeannene:

So people, I hope we've inspired even a conversation or a thought around considering your qualities and maybe it's time to start to name them for yourself. Maybe share them with a friend, but I think these are things That you ought to know about yourself. I reckon that most people can really name their faults or their Defects. Defects, or

Kevin:

yeah. What else would you call them? I don't know. Yeah, I could. Thousands.

Jeannene:

Easily, yes. So, not. No. Should I start? No, No, we're good. We're good. Thanks. That's awesome. Yeah, stop it. Stop. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Okay. Yeah, no. No. See, he's, and he's trying to put it, he's going to write it with a pen in the air. Stop it. I'm going to take that pencil off you. No. Yep. Okay. All

Kevin:

right. Are we finished? I think we are. And we're back.

Jeannene:

We are. Yes. The other thing I was thinking about, I think it's so much harder to stand up. from the crowd or start to believe in yourself if you're part of a minority group. Yep. I think that when you're, don't fit with the norms are, or fit as a majority, if you're a person of colour, if you're a person of different culture, a different experience in life. If you fit and you're more diverse, then I think what happens is those people that stand up for themselves stand out and the risk for them is great. So what am I saying? So being in touch with your qualities is really important, but actually saying it. Speaking it sometimes, I imagine, would leave them at greater threat, it's that standing out thing. So, I wonder, for some people, they don't actually get to Own or realize other skills or other qualities they actually have. I

Kevin:

imagine a lot of people. Yeah. People with disabilities. Yeah. Drug addicts in recovery. Yeah. Uh, I don't know. The list goes on and on. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It would be more difficult than it is for ordinary people to actually stand up.

Jeannene:

Yeah. Get it. Absolutely. So I guess I, I just wanted to say that because to say something for us that this is what can happen and hopefully our listeners out there would never think we're saying it should happen, but there is an option. To hopefully focus on your qualities or believe in yourself. I don't know if I've said that

Kevin:

well. You did. I understood it. Yeah. What did you understand? That, if you're a person that's already out of the ordinary, and that you stand up and do what it is that you want to do, if you're passionate about doing whatever that is, Then that might be more difficult you might get more flak. Yeah, actually you will yeah Yeah,

Jeannene:

and then the risk for them to give themselves a hard time or put themselves back down in their box Yeah, would be greater. Yeah, I think that there's always the the person who Hasn't fitted that, they're standing up anyway, and we can all think of people who are from minority groups or disadvantaged groups or people with disabilities that have done that and are remarkable and amazing. But I want to acknowledge what they've been up against to do that. And, and also for those people who identify with themselves as diverse or in minority groups, then it is so much harder for them to recognize their skills, qualities, attributes, et cetera.

Kevin:

Bob Marley. Tell me more. Well, I went and watched one last night and I knew some about him. I've taken photographs of the whalers. It's back in bed, but I didn't know as much as I thought I knew, so, Hmm, his outlook was obviously, it was about music, his whole life was about music, but it was also about his religion, which he was Rastafarian, and you couldn't tell in the movie, you know, just whether he was like really fanatical or whatever, or, you know. I don't think he was really for that. You couldn't tell how deeply involved he was with it, just that he believed it. And, I told somebody that this morning, and they said, yeah, it's just an excuse so he could smoke more ganja. Well, don't. Because they all did that. A lot of them said it was to do with their religion. But, the way it's pictured in this movie, and apparently how he was in real life, is that he was just full of energy. And really inspired by life and life around him. And yet he was born in Jamaica amidst um, terrible political circumstances. His country was on the verge of a civil war for a long time. And he left and then he went back just before he died. And a man of great courage. So what he wanted to do, what he did was talk about, and I know other musicians who do it as well, but he He didn't just do it once, he did it his whole career, he wanted to talk about how we didn't need to fight each other, that we could just be, he put it better than that, you know, he just talked about love, and it was incredible, you know, the last part of the movie, the last few minutes, it's not a long movie, there's a scene of him sitting outside his house in Jamaica, on an evening, and he's playing an acoustic guitar, starting to sing a song, you Which was exodus and it's full of young children come out and they sit by the fire with him and then his wife comes out and he Plays the song it was incredibly powerful and when he finishes It looks at his wife and says, what do you think? And she says when did you write that? He said I've been writing that all my life Like he just sang it, he didn't sit down and write any lyrics, he didn't sit down and think about how he was going to play it, what chords he was going to play. He just did it. Which is incredible. It's like some of the things that we've been talking about, you know, in terms of creativity, but in terms of standing up, you know, he was shot once, a friend of his was shot and badly injured, somebody else was cured, and he carried on doing what he believed in. Powerful, powerful, and he refused to be politically, refused to be with one political group or another, and he just said no. And then the last shot of the, wasn't of the movie, that's when they were rolling the scenes, was of the real Bob Marley, standing on a stage after a concert. And he's got the Jamaican political leaders surrounding him, and he's holding their hands out, holding their hands up, and he's, for the first time, he's got them together to, Agreed to sit down and talk about what's going on. That was his whole thing, you know, about why can't we just live this life in peace. And there's other people that my, like, Stevie Winwood, who more recently has stopped writing poem songs. Well, they weren't really poem songs, they were great songs. But he started writing spiritual songs, and he talks about similar stuff, yeah. Why did I mention that? Because it's fantastic. Yeah, because, yeah. Uh, because

Jeannene:

it's a choice and it, you might get some flack for it. And yes, it takes, like you said, courage it did to stand up for what you believe in and stand up for your belief. Like, and what you are doing is right for you. Yeah,

Kevin:

yeah, yeah. Okay. And that's it. That's a great story. Are we finished You want me to say goodbye? I can say goodbye. You can say goodbye. Okay. All right. Bye bye. Janine wants me to say more of goodbye. Oh my goodness. So I can say, this is Kevin signing off now. I hope you really enjoyed this and I hope you'll come back again in two weeks time. Oh my goodness. And listen to some more. Oh, that's Good? Yeah. Oh.

Jeannene:

I have no words. I have no words.

Kevin:

No, it's not even goodbye? Bye, people.

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Jeannene

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Kevin

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